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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

OP posts:
StoatofDisarray · 03/09/2023 18:15

FarEast · 03/09/2023 17:46

@StoatofDisarray i wish I could have made a deliberate decision not to have children. But I was surprised by the pain of single childlessness in my late 30s. And that was not for want of trying to find a “suitable” man! It got much easier in my 50s although I still can be a bit sad. But I have made a wonderful life for myself, in the face of all the pressures women are subjected to.

I always now want to say to young women - there are other kinds of lives and it’s really not so bad!

Please accept a supportive hug. On this issue I know I've had it easy compared to women who were unable - for whatever reason - to have children. X

PinkCherryBlossoms · 03/09/2023 18:19

It's interesting the way the article has a two examples, one set out as much more sympathetic than the other. You have Robin Hadley, who happened to meet his wife too late and it's just the luck of the draw. Then Robert Nurden at best didn't help himself, which he does admit, and the more extended description of his behaviour is quite unattractive.

Alycidon · 03/09/2023 18:32

According to his Amazon bio, he took his degree at Oxford Brookes University - before it existed.

Why not say 'Oxford Poly' for heaven's sake?

Unspoken grief childless men
FrankieStein403 · 03/09/2023 19:37

The implied/explicit criticism of men who 'shag around' conveniently ignores that it takes two to shag?

Add to that the seemingly high proportion of women who chase 'bad boys' then it's not surprising that the 'bad boys' believe they can settle down with a younger woman at a time of their choosing.

I spent 40 years in a job that meant I spent time in a huge range of different workplaces - almost without exception from shop floor to boardroom there was at least one seriously mysogynistic 'jack the lad' character. Criticism of their attitude was useless because they got laid despite this.

GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing · 03/09/2023 19:39

ilovesooty · 03/09/2023 08:28

Exactly. It's a human sadness, but some posters see an opportunity to sneer at men and put the boot in.

Yes I agree with this.

Im not too sure why gender was brought into it at all tbh

Wednesdaysotherchild · 03/09/2023 19:44

men can feel sad about how their life turned out too - shocking lack of empathy on here.

CostedStrikeRate · 03/09/2023 19:44

The main reason I ended up childless is because men didn't want to commit and settle down when I was younger. I was naive and didn't realise how much you have to vet men. I know at least one of them regrets his behaviour now, though it is probably the idea of lacking carers in old age.

Re: rich, older men being able to attract women easily... it's not always so. I know a couple of guys who have made enough money to retire early, and they are single. They lack charisma and looks.

Wednesdaysotherchild · 03/09/2023 19:46

My partner will be affected too if our IVF doesn’t work (recurrent miscarriages) but he is a decent man and wouldn’t abandon me just because I miscarry his babies, thankfully (that used to happen in previous eras quite a lot!). That doesn’t mean he isn’t allowed to be sad about not having children!

If you aren’t CNBC “childless not by choice” and you lack empathy, I don’t think you get to be nasty about people who are.

CoalCraft · 03/09/2023 19:48

I have a dear friend who is male and has spoken about his fear of never having children. He's 34 now and longterm single, and after some brief forays into the dating scene he just doesn't have the confidence to go out and find someone at the moment. He feels "past it" and that no one would want him now.

I feel awful for him really. He dreams of having kids the same as millions of other people do, even had names that he'd like to use. I really hope it happens for him.

Cattenberg · 03/09/2023 20:23

He really isn’t “past it”!

jazzyfips · 03/09/2023 20:26

Newnamehiwhodis · 03/09/2023 08:18

I do not feel in the least bit sorry for men.

What a delight you are

CleverLilViper · 03/09/2023 22:53

I do feel some sympathy-as I would with any person who is looking back on their life with any regrets-however it is somewhat limited.

It's limited because he admits that having/wanting children only became a focus in his early 40s. So, he assumed, during his 20s/30s, that he had all the time in the world and that when he was finally ready-he would find someone young enough and fertile enough to have kids with.

It would be one thing if he'd been trying to find the right woman to settle down with during the optimum years-and it just hadn't happened-but the fact that the issue of children didn't even occur to him until his early 40s speaks of his entitlement and dare I say it-delusion.

He fully believed that when the time came-a young, fertile woman would be more than happy to bear his kids. This is the message that is spread to young men from the media and the "manosphere." Many young, lonely men are following red-pill commentators, soaking up their advice which is largely "women are to blame for everything that is wrong in your life," "feminism has destroyed society," "women hit the wall as soon as they hit 30" and "men remain endlessly attractive to women and have their pick of women even when they get older."

The delusion is that because men have a wider and longer fertility window than women do-that means they can put off settling down and having children indefinitely. What society neglects to tell them is that whilst their fertility may remain (it declines past 40) their ability to attract young, fertile women withers and dies. Unless they fall into the categories of-status (fame), wealthy (high value) and good-looking (this is optional depending on how wealthy/famous a man is).

Vast majority of men don't fall into those categories, yet they want the perks of being in the "club" without putting in any of the work to get into the "club."

Of course, that isn't the case for every man who finds himself in similar situations. There are men and women who, for one reason or another, it just didn't happen.

As far as the "I don't want to be old and alone," references-and the discussion there-life comes with no guarantees. I'm child-free by choice, and it's not something that I'm worried about.

Having a child isn't a guaranteed way to have a carer or even an advocate. They could move to another country and be unable to advocate for you. You could have a shitty relationship with them and you don't speak. They could end up in prison.

You could have a child that has additional needs or disabilities that renders them incapable of being your carer/advocate. In fact, in this instance, there may be some issues surrounding how their care/needs are met in the case of their parent passing on or being incapable of providing care as they age.

Catsmere · 03/09/2023 23:33

Having a child isn't a guaranteed way to have a carer or even an advocate. They could move to another country and be unable to advocate for you. You could have a shitty relationship with them and you don't speak. They could end up in prison.

Yes, if my mother had had children with the expectation of being looked after, she'd have bombed out with the first two (alcoholic brother who thank goodness disappeared long since) and sister (said outright she'd put her in a nursing home) and it was only circumstances that meant I was stuck with the job.

And in general ... how often are sons likely to be the ones stuck with that role? Parents who expect children to look after them had generally better hope they have daughters.

HeatherMoores · 04/09/2023 00:19

Any one can regret not having children. And anyone can worry about who will be there for them when they’re older if they don’t.

DameCurlyBassey · 04/09/2023 00:42

OnlyFoolsnMothers · 03/09/2023 08:26

No sympathy- a man who knows he has all the time in the world left it as late as possible hoping a woman would be available and able at 40 or that he could pull someone younger. Tough.

I feel the same as you.

when I was younger there were quite a few men who would string along women who wanted kids and you just knew they thought they could do that because fertility wasn’t as much of an issue for men as it is for women. I am not usually mean or bitter but I am actually happy that some men discovered that there was also a time limit for them. I’m sorry but I am over the moon to read this.

PostMasting · 04/09/2023 00:43

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

ChellyT · 04/09/2023 02:38

Newnamehiwhodis · 03/09/2023 08:18

I do not feel in the least bit sorry for men.

I am hearing you!

ChellyT · 04/09/2023 02:43

brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr · 03/09/2023 08:22

or any human, right ? I mean why have empathy and all that bollocks.

Calm down... You obviously have an issue with reading other's comments, going down a rabbit hole on your own journey of enlightenment and all the other empathic bullshit you want to spurt at another that you have no idea what they have been through or not

WhatNoRaisins · 04/09/2023 07:14

This makes me think of a male friend who I've known since uni heading for a similar situation. He's in his late 30s and always assumed he'd marry and have children. We do talk about it as friends but I don't think he feels able to talk about it in general.

He actually did start to worry about this during his 20s. He says he's kept trying online dating but is rubbish at it. I get this, I'm lucky to have met my partner at uni as I'd probably suck too. Neither of us have found it easy to forge real life social networks either. I think some people do find it harder to meet potential partners.

Strawberryboost · 04/09/2023 07:57

I don’t limit my sympathy to those of a certain gender, race, age.

Those with no sympathy for men per se. Presumably you don’t have any sympathy for anyone white?

DameCurlyBassey · 04/09/2023 08:41

IcedPurple · 03/09/2023 17:03

He also couldn't accept that a lot of these older male celebrities having children with younger women are likely using IVF or other help.

The 'other help' might just be that hot young poolboy.

Hahaha! I’ve only just got
this.

Codlingmoths · 04/09/2023 08:42

HaPPy8 · 03/09/2023 08:35

He said he had a chance but the relationships weren’t the right ones so I think he was actually quite responsible? I think it’s very sad for him. I don’t think the comment about being alone was made in an entitled kind of way and would be something any woman could say too.

I would think about being alone when old , I think this is quite normal and as a woman I’m far more likely to have close friends (& I do). It doesn’t have to mean someone to serve me and take over the basic functions of life I’m too special for. Just like women I’m sure there are men who thought it would happen and it didn’t, and if they feel the lack of children then I am sorry for them. And I think it’s harder for men to talk about.

jazzyfips · 04/09/2023 08:49

DameCurlyBassey · 04/09/2023 00:42

I feel the same as you.

when I was younger there were quite a few men who would string along women who wanted kids and you just knew they thought they could do that because fertility wasn’t as much of an issue for men as it is for women. I am not usually mean or bitter but I am actually happy that some men discovered that there was also a time limit for them. I’m sorry but I am over the moon to read this.

Another well adjusted woman……

Cakesandbabes · 04/09/2023 09:39

Codlingmoths · 04/09/2023 08:42

I would think about being alone when old , I think this is quite normal and as a woman I’m far more likely to have close friends (& I do). It doesn’t have to mean someone to serve me and take over the basic functions of life I’m too special for. Just like women I’m sure there are men who thought it would happen and it didn’t, and if they feel the lack of children then I am sorry for them. And I think it’s harder for men to talk about.

There were articles about men's loneliness issues. I think quite a lits of it comes from guys not showing emotions so they are not "pussies" etc. They can talk hours about business or hobby, but personal? Very little and from what DH said mainly when shit hits the fan.

They just bottle emotions in until it gives them a heart attack. (because boys don't cry or whine)

LuvSmallDogs · 04/09/2023 10:19

I think that unfortunately men and women do sometimes gamble on there "being more time" and lose their best time/opportunity to procreate while they play the field or prioritise their finances/dreams etc.

It's sad for them, but we each get one life and each choose how we gamble away whatever time we have.

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