Police shoot pregnant woman dead (USA)

[SuddenlyOld]

Ok America, since when did it become normal for police officers to point guns at pregnant women accused of shoplifting?
She didn't have a weapon or get violent. Turns out she hadn't stolen anything either.
If I was black in America I'd be scared to go out 😪😪😪
This is probably the worst thing I've seen ever.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66690408

*2 things can be simultaneously true.

The victim made a series of wrong choices; and

She was unlawfully and unjustifiably killed.*

This

I think she chose a course of action that resulted in her death.

And so did the police officer.

I think it’s a culture of violence that’s got completely out of control. Anyone who carries a firearm is a potential threat to other people, all it takes is losing your temper and making the wrong decision in that moment.

It’s so easy to get a weapon, I could walk into a store tomorrow and buy a gun, even though I have no reason to need one. It’s utter madness.

Actually, not the case.

Section 60 – being stopped without reasonable grounds
Section 60 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 allows a police officer to stop and search a person without suspicion. You can only be stopped and searched without reasonable grounds if it has been approved by a senior police officer. This can happen if it is suspected that:

• serious violence could take place
• you’re carrying a weapon or have used one
• you’re in a specific location or area

https://www.royalgreenwich.gov.uk/info/200202/community_safety/2322/stop_and_search_know_your_rights

How can you genuinely go through life thinking that any resistance at all to the police, no matter how non violent, is in any way some kind of justification or reasoning for being literally shot to death.

It really alarms me the psychology of all of the “well, if they weren’t doing x then this would never have happened”. We do not (should not) live in a society where fatal force is used as a means to control peoples actions. Fatal force is used to save and protect the lives of police officers or other people, not a way to make your fucking job easier by making your citizens more (terrified of you) compliant.

Adam Toledo is a strange case to choose. Seeing he was with a another male shooting randomly in the air. When Police gave chase he had the gun in his hand. Which was clear to the Police officer giving chase.

He did stop, but as he very quickly turned around, he chucked the gun behind a wall.

The Police officer could not have seen him do that, due to where he was stood. Tragic he was 13. Slightly misleading to say he had "Empty hands"

I'm amazed this case hasn't gained more traction over here tbh.
Are there any riots in the USA, not that I want riots it's just that I've not heard about except for on here?

I take it you read the bit about being approved by a senior officer.

If a police officer asks you your name, you don't have to give it unless they have a lawful reason.

You can ask them for the reason they are stopping you. They should tell you and document it.

Of course, I suspect there are some police whose attitude might change if you seem to be the kind of person who knows their rights. In the UK, we police by consent. And we saw the kind of policing that has taken place with some officers.

*How can you genuinely go through life thinking that any resistance at all to the police, no matter how non violent, is in any way some kind of justification or reasoning for being literally shot to death.

It really alarms me the psychology of all of the “well, if they weren’t doing x then this would never have happened”. We do not (should not) live in a society where fatal force is used as a means to control peoples actions. Fatal force is used to save and protect the lives of police officers or other people, not a way to make your fucking job easier by making your citizens more (terrified of you) compliant.*

This 👏🏼

The " she chose a different course " theory.

Apologies I made a mistake the police shot this girl within 30 seconds.

Any Policeman anywhere in the world would certainly have suspicions of somebody driving a car with no number plates that doesn't fit their profile, and by that I mean of lower income NOT black.

This is arse. They made no 'assessment'. They shot her within 30 secs. And you realise the number plates are blacked out for the footage like other ones around that car.

I'd also be questioning why a 21 year old with two kids, one on the way who first became pregnant at around age 15, was driving around in a very new looking circa £53k car.

The police made that assessment as they ran over? They questioned that in their minds? In the 30 seconds before they shot her? It has zero relevance whatsoever .
It is pure stereotyping, apologist arse.

@CallumDansTransitVan

Why do posters who have explained this incident away for various reasons think there is an outcry and investigation ?

Because people have different opinions and, in the UK at least, I believe that this sort of incident is always referred to a 'watchdog'.

Because people have different opinions and, in the UK at least, I believe that this sort of incident is always referred to a 'watchdog'.

This is the US where police carry guns and use them.

My info comes from American cops shows only(specifically The Rookie) but as far as I am aware there is an investigation into every fatal police shooting? Some will be cleared quickly, others need more time but cops can't just shoot people and there not be an investigation. I know if you read mumsnet you would think that cops are gunning people down willy-nilly every hour of the day without reproach but I don't think that that is real life.

Yes, I know this is in the US. I assume that the investigation in the US will cover the incident in a similar way but don't know.
And we do have cops carrying guns in the UK, the only difference is that not all cops carry guns, some carry tasers , but not guns.

I know if you read mumsnet you would think that cops are gunning people down willy-nilly every hour of the day without reproach but I don't think that that is real life.

I don't get news from MN. Or cop shows.

I think you can note the outcry about this incident without thinking "cops are gunning down willy nilly every hour of the day. "

As if it's hyperbole to note this is particularly shocking event. That seems to be a line pushed on here.

My brother lives in the US and I hear his opinion quite frequently.

A taser is still classed as a firearm! Some police officers don't carry either in the uk!

Yes, I realise what a taser is, I'm actually trying to point out that cops have to be trained to use both. And I realise that not all carry either as in 'some carry tasers'.

Oh, well if you did you would know that all officer involved shootings are investigated.

I haven't actually seen any outcry about it apart from on this thread, not even a single news article about it has popped up on any of my feeds(but then again I don't have a brother that lives in the US ) and yes, I do think some of it like she would have been killed even if she didn't drive at a cop is hyperbole and serves no one.

I think both the police and the victim acted badly in this particular instance. The police used potentially excessive force but the victim had ignored umpteen requests to get out the car and then chose to try and leave the scene/drive the vehicle at the police.

My main gripe is with the pot stirring that always seems to go on with such cases. It's clear from the examples being posted that people will usually try and find a racial element even when there clearly isn't one - like the case mentioned above as an example of police racism where the police were actually trying to save a black man under the impression he was being held at gunpoint.

The thing is, it's not the predominantly white middle class demographic of mumsnet that will suffer the effects of this hyperbole. It's young black women like the victim in this story that are most likely to suffer. Especially if at the age where they spend a lot of time on social media and haven't yet developed the critical thinking skills they will later in life.

If a young black woman reads/believes that the police are likely to shoot her indiscriminately either way then she may resist arrest and end up escalating the situation. It's entirely possible that's what happened in this example.

And of course when it does happen the same old suspects will resume stirring the pot from their own position of safety ready to perpetuate the cycle. It's just irresponsible.

Oh, well if you did you would know that all officer involved shootings are investigated.

No I didn't know that.🤷‍♀️

But it's made the BBC which LOTS of events don't. Which is where I saw it. That's nothing to do with my California based brother.

And there have community protests which doesn't always happen.

My brother knew about it because it's a pretty notable event and he's not local to it.

Personally I don't take much notice of SM as any sort of moderator. I mean how many people are actually on this thread?

I can't even guess, 70 or so? Crazy influential 🙄 not.

@Inmybirthdaysuit

I think both the police and the victim acted badly in this particular instance. The police used potentially excessive force but the victim had ignored umpteen requests to get out the car and then chose to try and leave the scene/drive the vehicle at the police.

The victim did not cooperate. The police shot her within 30 secs. I don't care what colour her skin was.

The pot stirring has come from various camps.

Please see.

I'd also be questioning why a 21 year old with two kids, one on the way who first became pregnant at around age 15, was driving around in a very new looking circa £53k car.

That is just likely to intimidate a young mind tbh.

But much, much more likely to intimidate or influence young minds is THE EVENT ITSELF.
This thread has piss all reach to the people that count.

And it is so tedious to see posters setting themselves up as measured, considered, un reactive, all in a days work and others as hyperbolic, stirring the pot, reactive , knee jerk to make apologist arguments for this event.

If "acting badly" and " being uncooperative "
is a reason for being shot, we should see the police slaughtering folk left right and centre.

It's part of the nature of actual policing.