Reborn dolls in the pram bay

[gezelligheid]

A couple of times now I've been unable to get on the bus with my baby in a pram because there are two local women who take their reborn dolls out in prams and take up the pram bays. I know they are reborn dolls as I've seen the dolls in their pram.

I understand people have reborn dolls for many different reasons but to take up a space meaning a real baby can't get on the bus surely isn't fair?

I've complained to the bus service and they've said they cannot monitor whether babies are real or not so if they get on the bus first I should ask them to put their pram down upon boarding.

I'm worried this will cause an altercation on the bus so I'm wondering AIBU to say something on the bus even though it may be embarrassing for the women?

But these aren’t the only options . Where I live the rule is that if there are two prams already on the bus you wait for the next. No one has to then worry about safety.
Of course then posters say - well why should a real mother with a real baby be inconvenienced in this way (needing to wait) because of a silly doll. How ridiculous etc. that’s where people “shouting mental illness” have come in.

They would be laughed out of town if they lived where I do.

@Skinthin but the op has stated that the spots are specifically reserved for parent/carer and an an infant in a pram. Not a mentally ill person with a support.

There is so much about mothers being "entitled" on this thread but those spaces are FOR us so why shouldn't we stand up for them regardless of who is using them. We can be polite without being doormats.

@HairsprayBabe but why is everything about pitting one group of people against another these days. Do “us mothers” with living babies really need to “stand up” for ourselves against other women, (who may also be themselves “mothers” after all) who may be suffering grief, baby loss, infertility , trauma, mental health issues, and/ or living with complex learning disabilities ?

I also think it’s awful when people talk about “entitled” mothers with prams taking up space .

public transport should be accessible to everyone, that includes mothers, babies, disabled people, mentally unwell etc. can’t we all just have a little bit of consideration and respect?

However accessible a bus needs to be, telling a mum with a real baby that she can't get on because someone else has a doll in a pram is not a reasonable adjustment for the person with the doll, because it has a disproportionate effect on the mum with a baby. Or indeed a wheelchair user.

And Arriva can enforce their rules, because it's part of the conditions of carriage. You want to travel on their bus, you have to obey the driver. The driver tells you to fold the buggy to let someone on with a real baby, you do it or get off.

Where I live the rule is that if there are two prams already on the bus you wait for the next. No one has to then worry about safety that only works if the buses come every few minutes.

Why do some people want these dolls? I've not come across them and I'm confused.

They've lost a baby, be it during pregnancy, or after - it can help them grieve. Some people I've heard just miss the baby stage, so they get a replica of their now-grown child. Others want a baby but can't for whatever reason. And others I guess just like them!

@Skinthin standing up for something you need and are entitled to is not pitting one group against another, and it is possible to stand up for your needs whilst being respectful.
One persons trauma and triggers do not trump the needs of another, especially when the space is reserved for the first persons specific needs.
Why should a new mother, with a new born, possibly recovering from surgery wait for an hour in the rain for the next bus because someone with a doll won't move? Regardless of the reason for having the doll they can be held - far more safely than a real baby can.

I agree with @HairsprayBabe

I think they're used in several ways. Toys (my DC and friends had some reborn dolls. I think they're horrible, personally, and very expensive, but didn't say so). Doll collectors.

Then, apparently, they're also used by a small number of people as a coping aid for loss. Sorry if I've remembered that incorrectly.

I agree. Even from a numbers point of view; two people having to leave the bus and wait for another, potentially being made late or missing an appointment, because one person is taking up a space with a doll.

Why should a new mother, with a new born, possibly recovering from surgery wait for an hour in the rain for the next bus because someone with a doll won't move? Regardless of the reason for having the doll they can be held - far more safely than a real baby can.

Well said @HairsprayBabe

A doll can be held more safely than a baby on a moving vehicle like a bus.

It’s not about “trumping” anyone’s needs- imv your attitude is so childish.

I’m interested that you added “possibly recovering from surgery” , “standing in the rain”, and “waiting for an hour” . So if they aren’t recovering from surgery, if it’s not raining, if the next bus is sooner than an hour, can they wait then?

Everyone is entitled to use public transport and public transport should be accessible to people with disabilities, as well as people with babies (whether it is raining or whether they are recovering from surgery or not).

Everybody should be respectful of each others needs , and understand people’s circumstances are individual, varied and complex.

I think if you see someone with a doll in a pram (surely a highly unusual circumstance) and you needed space for your baby, you would be perfectly reasonable to politely ask that person if they could fold the pram down.
But that’s not enough for OP and others on this thread- they say “well you never know when baby is a doll or not “, and “you might be intimidated to ask” etc. they call people who take dolls in prams “selfish”. their conclusion is that no one should ever take a doll on a pram on a bus in the first place, and they want to stoke ridicule and outrage against those who do .
I understand on the surface where that view is coming from - a doll in a pram taking up space on a bus sounds absurd after all - but when you learn about the real life circumstances of some people as described on this thread , and what these dolls provide for them, you see a different side of the story. These dolls may provide someone with complex disabilities a means to navigate and cope as they go about their day.

It’s not about playing “top trumps” and whose need/ suffering is greatest. In my view there is space for all types of people in this world, including on buses.

Anyway, I don’t think you and I will agree on this so I will leave it there.

@Skinthin everyone is entitled to use public transport.

Not everyone is entitled to use the parent/carer and infant in a buggy spaces.

Just like not everyone is entitled to a wheelchair space.

I do not think we should ridicule people for using the dolls.
I do think that their friends/family/carers should encourage them to find a healthier way to heal with grief.
Or to find a way to use the dolls that does not impose on a space that was not designed for them.
I do think the bus companies should be doing their part too.
And while there is "space" for all types of people in the world the reality is the physical space on the bus is limited and the priority should be for the people whom the space was designed.

I do think that their friends/family/carers should encourage them to find a healthier way to heal with grief.
Or to find a way to use the dolls that does not impose on [others’] space

ok these are the specific attitudes/ opinions I really disagree with, and I think display and unpleasant form of ableism.

I'd question how realistic it is to expect average members of the public to go along with a stranger's reborn therapy approach and act like it's a real baby.

@Skinthin it is not ablest to suggest that families and carers should be encouraging behaviours that are not antisocial.

Deliberately taking a space that is not for you when the person it is designed for needs it and there are other options available to you is antisocial - regardless of disability.

I say this as someone who has worked alongside a special education programme for a long time. Teaching and supporting mentally ill and learning impaired people to interact "properly" with social norms is important.

Saying no to disabled people isn't ablest as long as they are not being told no because of their disability.
e.g no you cannot put your pram and doll in that parent/carer space is the same as no you cannot put your luggage in that parent/carer space.
It isn't designed for them it has nothing to do with disability.

@Skinthin I also meant *deal with grief not heal

Deliberately taking a space that is not for you when the person it is designed for needs it and there are other options available to you is antisocial

But all of these assumptions are not always met in this case. For example, there may be plenty of occasions where there is no one else present who needs the space. I think it’s ableist to assume that these people are necessarily imposing on others just by taking up what may often be an empty space, just in case someone else comes along. I think that’s disproportionate.
Also, I don’t necessarily agree that there should be spaces only for mothers with prams that can never be used by others if and when they need them.

their friends/family/carers should encourage them to find a healthier way to heal with grief

i still consider this to be a deeply judgemental and ableist assumption. I don’t think it’s for you to determine what may or may not be a healthy way of dealing with one’s disability or grief.

They terrify me

@Skinthin which is why I said when the person it is designed for does need it.

I don't have an issue with anyone using it if the people who it is designed for don't need it and I never said I did.

Just like I don't have an issue with people standing in the wheelchair bay if no-one in a wheelchair needs it. Regardless of how you feel about it the spaces are for parents/carers with prams. The bus company has seen a need and has catered to it. Just like there are priority seats for those less able to stand, eg someone with a walking aid or a heavily pregnant women.

In addition there is zero evidence to suggest they are helpful in dealing with grief or mental illness as many other posts have pointed out. They may have minor benefits for people suffering with dementia in care homes but even this has not been widely studied. So who are you to say they are helpful?

I don't have an issue with anyone using it if the people who it is designed for don't need it and I never said I did

Ah ok, we are talking somewhat at cross purposes then. what I was mostly objecting to was people saying taking a doll on a bus in a pram should never be allowed to happen , and such people were “selfish” and “ridiculous” , as a “real mum” could never tell if a real baby was in pram and they might be intimidated to ask someone to fold pram down etc etc.
As I said I think it would be perfectly reasonable for OP to ask those with dolls to fold buggy down but she didn’t want to do that.
i understand you and others think this should be enforced by drivers, but the bus company explained that they aren’t able to do that (even in the case of making space for wheelchairs) as it would put a disproportionate burden on the driver and I do understand the practical reasons why that might be. And after all you are the one who apparently believes in the sovereignty of the bus company rules.

Regardless of how you feel about it the spaces are for parents/carers with prams. The bus company has seen a need and has catered to it

Personally I’ve never seen this. The buses I’ve been on there are spaces for wheelchairs, prams, luggage, others with disability aids who need more room, with wheelchairs taking most priority and luggage taking last. this makes sense as spaces on buses are limited and people have a variety of needs for which more space may be required, and you can never anticipate who might be present on the bus at any particular point in time . But sure , I will take the OP’s word for it that there are some buses with spaces that cater specifically just for babies in prams.

In addition there is zero evidence to suggest they are helpful in dealing with grief or mental illness as many other posts have pointed out. They may have minor benefits for people suffering with dementia in care homes but even this has not been widely studied. So who are you to say they are helpful?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence . The fact that people find them comforting and helpful is evidence enough for me.
A pp on this thread described her relatives experiences, a young person with learning disabilities and autism , and explained how the dolls helped her cope and navigate a complex world she struggled to make sense of.
Dolls also help young children in a similar way so it doesn’t take a huge imagination to understand why they might provide utility and comfort to adults with particular needs.

Anyways, I’m not going to change my opinion of what you said, and you are clearly not going to change yours so 🤷🏼‍♀️

Would you ask two drug addicts who had blatantly pushed in front of you in the bus queue previously so they could get on the bus with their dolls to move? Or would you be intimidated by them knowing there's two of them and one of you with a baby to protect?

Because as I've said in the thread, that is why I'm intimidated and feel unable to ask them to move and wanted Arriva to ask their drivers to tell them.

@Skinthin Arriva, Stage Coach and Travel West Midlands busses all have designated buggy spaces specifically for parents/carers with babies in pushchairs. That is just in my area, I am sure other companies do them too.
It doesn't matter whether you have seen it or not.

There are also plenty of posters mentioning how the support doll makes their friend/relative worse as they dwell on grief and become more insular so I am extremely sceptical about their use. I am sure they do help a few people but I wouldn't take it as a rule.

The biggest problem is that if people use the spots that aren't designed for them often times the bus just drives past. That is where the bus company needs to step up and do their part. But how they police it is difficult.