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To think the gender and sex Ed wars are created by tories

541 replies

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 29/08/2023 21:15

The tories have totally messed up the country recently I think that people who did or didn't vote for them can see they are doing an awful job and they have no reasonable expectation of winning next general election..... EXCEPT now the Tory press has created this total obsession about

  1. Sex education and
  2. Gender and trans issues.

They are painting them selves as the only party that will save us from the wokes who want to identify as a dog or teach 12 year olds how to have anal sex... this is what the Tory tabloids are claiming is happening in schools.

What does everyone think?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
26
AdamRyan · 31/08/2023 14:08

StefanosHill · 31/08/2023 13:43

Tbf someone already posted how great it will be under Labour and no need to be concerned which re routed thread

Which of course only the most Labour lot will agree is dandy

Most can see through it even if some blindly say all fine

It's not fine
But I think the majority were happy with the status quo, e.g. a bit of gatekeeping, GRC to be legally treated as a woman, the rest to be a social contract.
Proposing Self ID in law and starting to implement that in policy was the big wake up call for most people and that happened under the Conservatives.
Now both women, GNC children and tradespeople are all suffering and it was quite avoidable.

We need a grown up response, not Conservative knee jerk culture wars.

StefanosHill · 31/08/2023 14:15

Chersfrozenface · 31/08/2023 13:51

Can anyone find a source on the Labour Party site or a quote from a Labour politician saying that it will be their local GP?

Because the only reference to diagnosis under Labour's proposed reform that I can find is the piece by Annaliese Dodds in the Guardian on 24 July which I linked to above.

Which is also what the Atlantic piece links to. It mentions "explanatory tweets" tweets by Annaliese Dodds - does anyone have access to those? They would presumably be around the same date

I didn’t google loads but a few came up and it’s so unclear. Which as always is how they do it. No clear answers

‘For example, instead of a panel of doctors having to sign off on the decision - something she called "demeaning" for trans people and "meaningless in practice" - they would replace it with the requirement of one doctor and a registrar.’

‘In fact, they said Holyrood's proposed safeguards were "much stronger and more specific than a GP being involved in the process"’

So is that some appointed GP doing the lot? By zoom? No idea

Or it could be all GPs

As usual it’s PR bumpf and no clear indication

Chersfrozenface · 31/08/2023 14:32

"In fact, they said Holyrood's proposed safeguards were "much stronger and more specific than a GP being involved in the process"’

This second quote comes from a news item on Stonewall's reaction to Labour's proposal.

Here is the full text on Stonewall''s site, with a link back to the AD piece in the Guardian.

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/news/stonewall-statement-labours-gender-recognition-act-reform-proposals

It looks to me as if Stonewall have taken it for granted that "one doctor" refers to a GP - unless they know something the rest of us don't because it hasn't been published

RhymesWithOrange · 31/08/2023 15:27

The SNP should just be honest about gender identity ideology. Dispense with the GP and require a Gender High Priest instead. Gender identity is a matter of faith, not medical diagnosis.

Then write public policy to treat it like any other religion.

Chersfrozenface · 31/08/2023 15:42

RhymesWithOrange · 31/08/2023 15:27

The SNP should just be honest about gender identity ideology. Dispense with the GP and require a Gender High Priest instead. Gender identity is a matter of faith, not medical diagnosis.

Then write public policy to treat it like any other religion.

The SNP don't want a GP or any other medical professional involved in the process at all.

All it would take under the Bill passed by the Scottish Parliament is a declaration by the individual who wants to change gender officially.

https://www.gov.scot/news/gender-recognition-reform-bill-passed/

Self ID, in other words.

Labour are proposing the need for a diagnosis of dysphoria by one doctor (details of which doctor unclear).

DelurkingLawyer · 31/08/2023 15:42

There’s no doubt that a lot of institutional capture happened on the current Government’s watch but a lot of it was covert and the result of a very long game.

If you haven’t read the Denton document (drafted by the city solicitor Dentons, suggesting tacking self-ID onto gay marriage so as to slip it through covertly in the knowledge it had little support) it is worth a google.

There are also threads on the FWR board which set out evidence of premeditated institutional capture starting in the 90s when the Beaumont Society became actively involved in campaigning for the Gender Recognition Act (and you might want to ask yourself why a society for male transvestites and their wives chose to make common cause with transgender people for a gender recognition certificate, and why it and others campaigned for the conscious use of legislative language that obfuscates the difference between sex and gender, which has resulted in some of the problems of interpretation and application of the law on single sex spaces that we see today).

So to a degree I give the Tories a pass for not realising what was going on under their noses - it was meant to be hidden and for a long time it was, very successfully. They were foolish to have proposed GRA reform without proper consideration of the issues it raised and to have hung onto it for so long - but they have abandoned it now and arguably forcing it into the open has blown apart the secrecy in a beneficial way.

As for Labour: I speak as a member and as a non-bot. They are guilty in my view of expressing rabid support for self-ID to own the Tories - at precisely the moment when a lot of people were waking up to the problems with it. They also attempted to stifle debate inside and outside the party, and maintained it as policy way after it had become clear it was both a stupid idea and a stone cold vote loser.

It should not have taken Isla Bryson and Sturgeon’s implosion to make Starmer change direction. To characterise it as a culture war (as he continues to do) is frankly an insult given that Labour Party policy is now belatedly what many members of his own party have been saying for years. It’s a piss poor way of trying to minimise and shut down a debate in which he has repeatedly failed to gain the upper hand.

PS Labour also don’t get to play the “culture war” card when some of its MPs are actively engaging in the same war from the other side. Drag Story Hour was a culture war creation of the left in the US to own the Republicans. When Stella Creasy posts pictures of herself and her kids at Drag Story Hour she’s down in the trenches herself. So they can fuck off with that, IMO.

Anxioys · 31/08/2023 16:06

Labour would have to be certifiable if they made the doctor concerned anything other than a clinical psychiatrist given the serious risk of people detransitioning and potential litigation.

A GP could refuse to do it. Who would want that kind of liability? No one.

RedToothBrush · 31/08/2023 16:06

Dramatico · 31/08/2023 11:02

Also, there are loads of reasons why women might feel uncomfortable about going for their smear. Sexual assult experiences, difficult childbirth, general feelings of modesty or vulnerability - loads. That is why healthcare professionals do try to make them as quick and easy as possible.

If someone is 'avoiding cervical screening', the onus is on them to take responsibility for their mental and physical health like we all must do in adult life. The onus is not on the rest of society to change everything up to make a certain group of people more comfortable.

I am willing to bet one of the main reasons women avoid it is due to lack of trust in HCP, based on national scandals and due to previous experience due to poor care or bedside manner. And there are more women potentially doing avoidant behaviour as a result of 'trans inclusivity' than transmen who would be avoidant due to sticking to sex based descriptions.

The lack of recognition of this is, a scandal in its own right.

Women who have been able to build a good relationship with a HCP are far more likely to trust them with their care. And this goes the same for anyone trans identifying.

The fact that indulging the nonsense that sex is gender is part of the problem and should be stressed by medical professionals in any transition, with failure to acknowledge or accept this, being a barrier to further medical transition - because it points to an inability to demonstrate that they understand what they are consenting to. Such behaviour is a red flag in its own right, which should be acted upon - it is suggestive of other, unaddressed issues.

Women who have had birth trauma and ask for an ELCS are recommended to be immediately granted on, but it should be taken as a red flag to recieve extra appointments and emotional support regardless. Upon doing this, it was found that women are much more likely then to revert to a VB without pressure - because the fear is more about the relationship with HCP and a feeling of not being in control. It centres on the idea of 'not being listen to' and 'being forced into x, y or z'. THIS IS PART OF THE NATURE OF SUCH MEDICAL BASED TRAUMA AND IT IS (OR WAS) BEGINNING TO BE RECOGNISED.

The onus, in this scenario can't be on women to 'chase' help. Part of the point is that these women, are often too vulnerable or traumatised to be able to do this without proactive support from medics who recognise these women can't just be shroved through a sausage factory of care and come out the other end ok. The default needs to be upon identifying women who have a trauma background in any such scenario. And they be treated accordingly with women centred care - and yes that would include excluding males if this is requested and not putting them into a situation where they fear they could be forced into a situation with one against their wishes. Or in the care of transmen, exploring further underlying reasons for being in denial about their sex because this doesn't simply disappear because pronouns are used in the way required.

Female patients should not be asked to uphold the fantasy of others and to stop the hurty feelings of male employees or other patients. They should not be collateral damage to other people's issues. They should be centred. Care should be provided that understands this. Any staff member who doesn't understand this, isn't fit to practice. Any patient who thinks their right to uphold gender beliefs should trump others biological, emotional and differing beliefs shouldn't get preferatial treatment. They should be treated with sensitivity away from other patients to prevent potential conflicts - the onus being on trans patients being a minority versus women.

But ultimately we can not ignore that the 'trans' bit means 'I am the opposite sex to the one I wish I was' and that gender is not sex. We should NEVER be conflating gender with sex in a medical setting because it produces risk to trans patients and has potential to harm to vulnerable patients.

And thats ALSO why the default in healthcare should reflect sex - with those struggling with that, treated in other channels in parallel to other issues. Transmen who transition with hormones and surgery, aren't the type of patient who rocks up to a GP having never seen one for years. They will have been frequent flyers and repeat attenders - probably more than other females. The opportunities for HCP to engage are therefore much more numerous than with say a woman who doesn't speak english and struggles with healthcare messages which aren't really clear.

For me this highlights a real issue: that medical transition isn't fully addressing psychological needs and promotion of social transition isn't recognising there is an inherent psychological problem with conflating sex with gender thats being effectively swept under the carpet.

You can't just ignore the fact that sex isn't gender without doing harm - whether thats to women and transmen or men and transwomen. However there is also a bunch of evidence that females are coming out much more negatively in this, regardless of their beliefs.

Saying we should change language and everyone should just suck up the fall out, does exactly this - ignores the harms to everyone concerned.

Its a cop out. Its a failure of properly individualise care centred on differing needs. Its NHS sausage factory care at the expense of real people who aren't robots.

StefanosHill · 31/08/2023 16:11

Chersfrozenface · 31/08/2023 14:32

"In fact, they said Holyrood's proposed safeguards were "much stronger and more specific than a GP being involved in the process"’

This second quote comes from a news item on Stonewall's reaction to Labour's proposal.

Here is the full text on Stonewall''s site, with a link back to the AD piece in the Guardian.

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/news/stonewall-statement-labours-gender-recognition-act-reform-proposals

It looks to me as if Stonewall have taken it for granted that "one doctor" refers to a GP - unless they know something the rest of us don't because it hasn't been published

What a shame Dodds didn’t feel she had to clarify the press release by turning up to answer questions

I’d also like to know which new law will protect single sex spaces

They’re against re writing EqA to biological sex so how will it be done

StefanosHill · 31/08/2023 16:15

That diagnosis of gender dysphoria also stuck out to me

We don’t typically reorder society to validate a dysphoria

Men seem to have convinced institutions that we should

AdamRyan · 31/08/2023 16:17

DelurkingLawyer · 31/08/2023 15:42

There’s no doubt that a lot of institutional capture happened on the current Government’s watch but a lot of it was covert and the result of a very long game.

If you haven’t read the Denton document (drafted by the city solicitor Dentons, suggesting tacking self-ID onto gay marriage so as to slip it through covertly in the knowledge it had little support) it is worth a google.

There are also threads on the FWR board which set out evidence of premeditated institutional capture starting in the 90s when the Beaumont Society became actively involved in campaigning for the Gender Recognition Act (and you might want to ask yourself why a society for male transvestites and their wives chose to make common cause with transgender people for a gender recognition certificate, and why it and others campaigned for the conscious use of legislative language that obfuscates the difference between sex and gender, which has resulted in some of the problems of interpretation and application of the law on single sex spaces that we see today).

So to a degree I give the Tories a pass for not realising what was going on under their noses - it was meant to be hidden and for a long time it was, very successfully. They were foolish to have proposed GRA reform without proper consideration of the issues it raised and to have hung onto it for so long - but they have abandoned it now and arguably forcing it into the open has blown apart the secrecy in a beneficial way.

As for Labour: I speak as a member and as a non-bot. They are guilty in my view of expressing rabid support for self-ID to own the Tories - at precisely the moment when a lot of people were waking up to the problems with it. They also attempted to stifle debate inside and outside the party, and maintained it as policy way after it had become clear it was both a stupid idea and a stone cold vote loser.

It should not have taken Isla Bryson and Sturgeon’s implosion to make Starmer change direction. To characterise it as a culture war (as he continues to do) is frankly an insult given that Labour Party policy is now belatedly what many members of his own party have been saying for years. It’s a piss poor way of trying to minimise and shut down a debate in which he has repeatedly failed to gain the upper hand.

PS Labour also don’t get to play the “culture war” card when some of its MPs are actively engaging in the same war from the other side. Drag Story Hour was a culture war creation of the left in the US to own the Republicans. When Stella Creasy posts pictures of herself and her kids at Drag Story Hour she’s down in the trenches herself. So they can fuck off with that, IMO.

Yes I agree
I just really hate they are now forcing the "left v right" culture war when they are as complicit in the capture as anyone else. That's what I mean about being adults. Labour as much as the Tories. The "I'm voting conservative because they know what a woman is!!!!" only encourages the culture war approach.

By making it a "left v right", "with us or against us" issue, I worry we will end up with a Conservative government who can claim a mandate to treat women differently to men. And then use that to fuck us over. Similar to what's happened with Brexit.

The political pressure and reporting has forced Labour to say they will protect women's rights. So let's keep that up prior to the election, on them and other parties.

The answer as feminists is not voting conservative. That's like turkeys voting for Christmas.

FOJN · 31/08/2023 16:31

The answer as feminists is not voting conservative. That's like turkeys voting for Christmas.

You demand that this isn't treated as left vs right issue and then make feminism a left vs right issue and follow it up by expressing your contempt for anyone woman who would consider voting Tory because of this issue. It's this kind of attitude that alienates old school lefties like me. It's the same kind of purity spiral which creates identity politics and you're either with us or against us narrative. You are part of the problem.

Perhaps reserve your contempt for the political parties who have let women down and leave people alone to vote according to their conscience.

BloodyHellKen · 31/08/2023 16:33

The answer as feminists is not voting conservative. That's like turkeys voting for Christmas.

I think that very much depends on your definition of what a feminist is.

My definition is that women and men are equal and both have the right to make their own choices in life (such as who to vote for without being made to feel they are making the 'wrong' choice.

BloodyHellKen · 31/08/2023 16:34

FOJN · 31/08/2023 16:31

The answer as feminists is not voting conservative. That's like turkeys voting for Christmas.

You demand that this isn't treated as left vs right issue and then make feminism a left vs right issue and follow it up by expressing your contempt for anyone woman who would consider voting Tory because of this issue. It's this kind of attitude that alienates old school lefties like me. It's the same kind of purity spiral which creates identity politics and you're either with us or against us narrative. You are part of the problem.

Perhaps reserve your contempt for the political parties who have let women down and leave people alone to vote according to their conscience.

Spot on @FOJN

DelurkingLawyer · 31/08/2023 16:34

@AdamRyan - I agree to a degree and as a member I would have to leave to vote for any other party (and it wouldn’t be the Tories).

However I think the real challenge (and my fear) is that unless there is a very clear manifesto commitment Starmer will do what he pleases once in power and we will not be able to stop it. I think the manifesto will be as vague as possible to facilitate that.

This is’t directed at you, but I am also sick of the left assuming it is entitled to women’s votes, or saying it’s the only safe option for feminists when it plainly for a long time wasn’t, or saying oh yes dear you must vote for the Bigger Picture and the Common Good and we’ll get around to your issues later when we have time.

begaydocrime42 · 31/08/2023 16:37

Switcher · 29/08/2023 21:40

Well the TRAs seem so full of batshit own goals if they actually gave a shit about the health and happiness of the trans community that it's hard not to conclude that they're right wing stooges. But there's more going on than that and it has arisen from Michel fucking Foucault et al. People like my dad spouting Derrida in his 70s anthropology seminars. Postmodernism has basically led some dumb fucks down a path that justifies their innate authoritarianism.

Nonbinary identities and trans people have existed for a very, very long time though - this is just the modern form of it which you could argue is somewhat backed up by postmodernist/gender studies thought, at a push?

Anyways OP I agree... people make a massive deal out of it based on what they think woke/libs/trans people are saying rather than what we actually do say lol. People honestly getting their knicks in a twist because of a sensationalist DM article. Touch grass pls

Theeyeballsinthesky · 31/08/2023 16:54

until about 5 minutes ago everyone accepted the A) trans people exist b) no they’ve not actually changed sex, they’re not actually a woman/man and while ppl can identify as whatever gender they want, sometimes sex really matters c) no one should be discriminated against for being trans

and then TRA demanded that we accepted TW are identical to biological women with access to any & all single sex spaces, sports, prizes, programmes and refuges fir women

and so here we are

but you know this….

Boomboom22 · 31/08/2023 16:58

Nothing like turkeys, labour have never supported feminism. They were against women working to start with, no female leaders, why would anyone feminist think Labour are the default party? 🤔

AdamRyan · 31/08/2023 17:00

FOJN · 31/08/2023 16:31

The answer as feminists is not voting conservative. That's like turkeys voting for Christmas.

You demand that this isn't treated as left vs right issue and then make feminism a left vs right issue and follow it up by expressing your contempt for anyone woman who would consider voting Tory because of this issue. It's this kind of attitude that alienates old school lefties like me. It's the same kind of purity spiral which creates identity politics and you're either with us or against us narrative. You are part of the problem.

Perhaps reserve your contempt for the political parties who have let women down and leave people alone to vote according to their conscience.

Oh hello purity spiral poster. I see you've name changed.

I don't care who you vote for. Just don't pretend your Conservative vote is motivated by concern for women.

I object to Tory fans shutting down any kind of analytical/critical thinking with "they know what a woman is!" It's extremely reductive.

AdamRyan · 31/08/2023 17:01

DelurkingLawyer · 31/08/2023 16:34

@AdamRyan - I agree to a degree and as a member I would have to leave to vote for any other party (and it wouldn’t be the Tories).

However I think the real challenge (and my fear) is that unless there is a very clear manifesto commitment Starmer will do what he pleases once in power and we will not be able to stop it. I think the manifesto will be as vague as possible to facilitate that.

This is’t directed at you, but I am also sick of the left assuming it is entitled to women’s votes, or saying it’s the only safe option for feminists when it plainly for a long time wasn’t, or saying oh yes dear you must vote for the Bigger Picture and the Common Good and we’ll get around to your issues later when we have time.

Yes I agree with you.
I don't have any issue with anyone choosing not to vote for a party because of their stance on these issues. I left the lib demo for precisely this reason.

nothingcomestonothing · 31/08/2023 17:03

AdamRyan · 31/08/2023 17:00

Oh hello purity spiral poster. I see you've name changed.

I don't care who you vote for. Just don't pretend your Conservative vote is motivated by concern for women.

I object to Tory fans shutting down any kind of analytical/critical thinking with "they know what a woman is!" It's extremely reductive.

I don't want to vote Tory. I loathe the Tories. Please point to a party I can vote for which acknowledges that sex is real, and matters.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 31/08/2023 17:10

@begaydocrime42

people make a massive deal out of it based on what they think woke/libs/trans people are saying rather than what we actually do say lol.

Lol.

Well what do you say then?

Cone on, educate me.

Do you acknowledge sex and gender identity are different?

Do you acknowledge female people - the ones born with bodies that meet the working definition of female that has existed for millenia, which carry with them specific strengths and vulnerabilities that are different to male bodies, and upon which many sexist biases within our culture were constructed - deal with risks and consequences that are due to their sex and are not experienced and suffered the same way by people who are not that sex regardless of how they may label their "gender"?

Do you acknowledge there's no hate or bias in saying those people, the female people, have a right to single sex spaces and support to counteract the physical and social consequences of their sex, and they should not be smeared as bigots for wanting this?

Do you acknowledge the only logic by which a male person can identify as a woman is if one believes men and women have different types of mind, and that this makes the concept of gender identity inherently sexist in construction?

If you do acknowledge these things, why are you not standing against the political and cultural movement to redefine womanhood as simply a type of personality and based on that, strip away any single sex supports or protections?

If you do not acknowledge these things, I'm afraid you are indeed saying exactly what I think you are.

Lol.

FOJN · 31/08/2023 17:16

AdamRyan · 31/08/2023 17:00

Oh hello purity spiral poster. I see you've name changed.

I don't care who you vote for. Just don't pretend your Conservative vote is motivated by concern for women.

I object to Tory fans shutting down any kind of analytical/critical thinking with "they know what a woman is!" It's extremely reductive.

Name changed? Why would you say that? Are you accusing me of being a sock puppet? If you want to make a complete fool of yourself you could report me to MN.

No one owes you an explanation for their voting choices so they have no need to pretend about their reasons. Its rather arrogant of you to assume you know what really motivates people to vote the way they do.

I have never voted Tory but I may well do at the next election because I don't trust any other party not to introduce self ID one way of another. I would vote SDP if they field a candidate in my constituency. However I do not think that anyone who votes differently to me is stupid, that takes a certain amount of ego.

Of course limiting the discussion to knowing what a woman is is reductive but you cannot deny that it's the starting point if you intend to protect sex based rights.

Your post is yet more of the same contempt, is it beyond you to have respect for other people's point of view?

AdamRyan · 31/08/2023 17:19

Boomboom22 · 31/08/2023 16:58

Nothing like turkeys, labour have never supported feminism. They were against women working to start with, no female leaders, why would anyone feminist think Labour are the default party? 🤔

I said feminists voting for the conservatives are turkeys voting for Christmas. During the Conservative government period:

  • maternal mortality has increased
  • women can't get hold of essential medication reliably (HRT)
  • childcare has become unaffordable and it's increasingly difficult to find
elderly/disability care support, so more women are going part time/dropping out of work to fill the gap
  • as a result increasing numbers of women live in poverty
  • rape and sexual assault are effectively decriminalised
  • domestic abusers are not effectively dealt with so women are stalked, injured and murdered by abusers even when they've flagged the risk. There is no plan to deal with this
  • women are increasingly reporting gender discrimination at work
  • porn is increasingly widespread as to be normal and is increasingly violent and misogynist, entrenching damaging attitudes in our teens. Resulting in things like an increase in anal injuries in teen girls which will affect them for the rest of their lives

Yes well done Tories. Women have vaginas. Now if you could come up with some plans to address some of the issues that women face, that would be fab.

AdamRyan · 31/08/2023 17:20

nothingcomestonothing · 31/08/2023 17:03

I don't want to vote Tory. I loathe the Tories. Please point to a party I can vote for which acknowledges that sex is real, and matters.

I don't want to tell you who to vote for. Great it's not the woman hating nasty party though.