‘As ye sow, so shall ye reap.’ The British Museum; the writhing …

[SurpriseSparDay]

I can’t be the only person utterly fascinated by the level of distraught handwringing disbelief the British Museum is experiencing right now.

Theft, eh?

How, pray, did this great institution acquire the artefacts contained therein? How?

@Sometimeswinning I googled for two minutes: The first two non-British homepages I found both stated that Elgin didn't have permission:
https://news.sky.com/story/elgin-marbles-what-are-they-and-how-did-they-end-up-in-the-british-museum-12779617
” He is said to have claimed he had been given permission by the Ottoman Empire for the transfer of the marbles - but despite the vast documentation from that period, nothing has been found to support his actions.”

https://greekreporter.com/2023/08/08/1801-when-lord-elgin-removed-the-first-sculptures-from-parthenon-to-take-to-england/ states that Elgin had permission to do excavations on Parthenon. Nothing else.

Not everything you read in British newspapers is true.

@Fimofriend I don’t think these articles mean what you think they mean. This is what happens when you think you know about a subject after 2 minutes on Google.

@Sometimeswinning Those were new articles.

I also figured it was best only to include links to articles in English.

Yeah I think they all pretty much say the same thing anyway. Hopefully one day it will be sorted.

The British Museum bought the marbles from Lord Elgin, who had bought them from the governor of Greece at the time - Greece was part of the Ottoman Empire. The Parthenon was being broken up and the stone used to make lime. Elgin rescued the remaining pieces, which would have otherwise been destroyed. No-one in Greece at the time thought anything of the Parthenon (which was used as an arsenal and had blown up in the eighteenth century) but that it was a good source of limestone (this is the case for old buildings all over the world e.g. English castles and churches often incorporate stone from Roman buildings etc). The purchase was legal and also a wonderful rescue. Why should the BM return them to Greece, which I think might require an Act of Parliament and also open the doors to demands that other legally purchased artefacts be returned?

You sound like Vicky Pollard: "Oooh my God, I so can't believe you just said that!!"

Did you know that there are two Chinas? Chiang Kai-shek reunited China and was for many years regarded as the legitimate ruler. The Communists renewed their insurgency and managed to take control of mainland China. Chiang Kai-shek retained control of Taiwan.

The Communists had no respect for Chinese culture and destroyed a lot of it including buildings. This got worse under the Cultural Revolution. So if we're going to give anything back it should be to Taiwan, but then the Communists would make a fuss about that.

The Kangxi Emperor was Buddhist. Tibetan Buddhism was patronised by the Manchus. I wonder if there are any artefacts in the British Museum looted by Elgin's forces from Beijing that are religious. We wouldn't want to return those to the Communists. These artefacts would be Tibetan or Manchu, not Chinese.

I mean… I don’t want to be pulled into this again but it really wasn’t as clear cut as this. As much as it annoys me the stupid comments saying “It’s been proven and they were definitely stolen” There is even less proof chance Elgin’s permission reached to the removal.

You sound like Vicky Pollard: "Oooh my God, I so can't believe you just said that!!"

Only thing is, I don’t look like her.

I look more like “the Nigerians” whose artefacts you seem to believe “belong to the world”

We can read, y’know?

This is a pretty disingenuous account - Greece was occupied by the Ottomans, and the Venetians actually damaged the Parthenon trying to remove sculptures. Elgin was unable to produce any proper proof that he had permission to remove sculptures in situ - only that which had fallen on the ground. If it was as straightforward as you say, why was there a parliamentary enquiry with plenty of MPs (and others) stating that they were removed illegally? Besides, once Greece gained its independence their government asked for the marbles back, and in terms of heritage ethics and basic morals, it would be the right thing to do. The BM have behaved really disgracefully.

Solidarity against these posters with their colonial mindsets - just why should the artefacts Britain stole from countries they invaded be held for 'the world' - why should the BM presume that it represents the world. Just because British material culture is a bit crap compared to other civilisations?

Greece gave us theatre, philosophy, astronomy, medicine....On the scales of what's owed, we should give them the marbles back.

@Fimofriend Not everything you read in British newspapers is true.

Dear God I am in shock. I shall have to go and lie down....

@nidgey Exactly! Why are some people so eager to defend thieves? Several commissions have concluded that the marbles were obtained illegally.

I don't understand why you have a problem with me using the term "the Nigerians". The Benin Bronzes were created by the Edo people in the Kingdom of Benin. The Edo people still exist and Edo City still exists. If the bronzes belong to anybody, they belong to them. Nigeria didn't exist at that time.

I didn't say that the bronzes should remain in London, I said that it would be a good idea if they were in Benin City for part of the year and somewhere else in the world for part of the year. Each year a different place. It could be Tokyo, New York or Lagos. Then as many people as possible get to see them.

But why should they be in other places?
They were stolen, so should be given back and their custodians decide whether they travel or not. Brits need to get over this idea that they're the arbiters of what should happen to other people's cultural artefacts. They can't even look after 'their' own collections as witnessed by this latest mess in the BM.

They can't even look after 'their' own collections as witnessed by this latest mess in the BM.

...Looks at the damage being done to the Stonehenge landscape ... plus the archaeological vandalism that is HS2 (now nor nowt as we are learning).

Should have come back to this sooner, but I honestly can’t be bothered to reply to you @SuePine69 …

It’s like hearing the voice of every single person who has tried to prevent me from leading a full and satisfying life in Britain.

Urgh. I have a lot of sympathy with the case for returning the Elgin marbles, but I also feel that despite its colonial past, the modern BM does a fantastic job of preserving artifacts and making them available for the world to study observe. It is funny how those of a certain political persuasion argue against statehood and pride of ones country, yet are extremely protective of this when an argument can be made against a great institution of the UK. Greek, Nigerian, Mesopotamian, Roman, Egyption and Chinese history are not the possession of those respective countries. Often peoples of different civilisations and even ethnic origin have come and gone between some artifacts being created and being dug up, and the British museum allows free entry to anyone who wants to come and see them. The Elgin Marbles are slightly different here because of the shadiness of their relatively recent acquisition.

I don't like the implication that the organisation is getting its just desserts by having objects stolen from them. Those stealing from the collection are seeking to enrich themselves, not to act to restore items to their country of origin. All they are doing is destroying the opportunity for artifacts to be viewed and studied. They may as well destroy them as no doubt they'll end up in some middle eastern sheiks private collection.

Urgh...'making them available for the world to study' - 'the world' could also study artefacts in their country of origin. The very idea of collecting often looted objects from all over the world in one place is so deeply colonial. It's the British museum, not the world museum.

To have real pride in any country, one would think wanting its cultural institutions to act ethically would be more important than hanging on to material stolen from other places.

'Greek, Nigerian, Mesopotamian, Roman, Egyption and Chinese history are not the possession of those respective countries' - why not?

Have you never heard of the concept of national patrimony? Why does the British government often try to stop British works of art from being sold to collectors outside Britain in that case? Why is a licence required to export British archaeological finds? Because 'The purpose of the export control system is to provide an opportunity for the UK to retain cultural goods judged to be of outstanding national importance that would otherwise be exported and to provide a guarantee of the legality of the export.'

Why did the Mexican government try to stop an auction of pre-Columbian artefacts in Germany recently?
https://www.artnews.com/art-news/news/mexican-government-halt-sale-pre-columbian-artifacts-germany-1234604280/

If artefacts are sold to collectors they will not be seen by millions of people. Some of us think that it is quite important that they are seen by the maximum number of people.

You could say that Ewuare II, the current Oba of Benin, is the person who should get to decide what happens to the Benin Bronzes. That doesn't mean that other people can't express an opinion about what should happen to them.

Ewuare II may choose to keep them as part of his private collection, which would be his right. But it is my right to say that I would be sad if that happened.

@nidgey I don't think country of origin is as important as some people suggest because China, Iraq, Italy, Greece, Nigerian are not the same thing as Ming, Babylonian, Roman, Hellenic or Benin. This doesn't really apply to Greece, and it probably sticks in the gullet of those who hate Britain, but transporting artifacts crucial to our understanding of the dawn of civilisation to Tehran, Baghdad etc. where unrest and antiquity crime is rife would be stupid.

Yes, I am sure that the British do have a degree of a exceptionalism attitude, but we take our responsibilities to science, history and learning extremely seriously. We retain these artifacts so everyone can study them and ensure that generations to come will also benefit. Uncomfortable as it is to some, but no one could say the same of Iraq or China from that list above.

but we take our responsibilities to science, history and learning extremely seriously

As long as it's the right kind of science, history and learning. Destroying the Walls of Benin wasn't really a great advert for us.

@SerendipityJane in no way do I defend how some of these objects came into the collection or behaviour of our forbearers. But we have these objects now, and have a duty to preserve them and make them available for the world to study. And that is what the BM does. It is a force for good in the world. And I find it disappointing that people can react snidely when a criminal act deprives the world of objects to sale them to the highest bidder for financial gain, motives that are in no way comparable to the modern day objectives of the BM.

’we take our responsibilities to science, history and learning extremely seriously. We retain these artifacts so everyone can study them and ensure that generations to come will also benefit.’

That is jingoistic and racist bullshit.

The BM didn’t even notice that their own staff were stealing artefacts. If ‘we’ includes the current government, just look at what they’ve done to higher education and research in the past few years! ‘Everyone’ can’t study these objects, witness how easy it is to invite a scholar from Nigeria and countless other countries to undertake a research visit to the UK - hint, not easy at all. The whole safeguarding for humanity trope is as dead as the British Empire.