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Original poster

‘As ye sow, so shall ye reap.’ The British Museum; the writhing …

234 replies

SurpriseSparDay · 26/08/2023 08:29

I can’t be the only person utterly fascinated by the level of distraught handwringing disbelief the British Museum is experiencing right now.

Theft, eh?

How, pray, did this great institution acquire the artefacts contained therein? How?

OP posts:
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8
Original poster
SurpriseSparDay · 31/08/2023 08:38

Thanks to all for these fascinating snippets of history - and perceptions thereof!

OP posts:
SuePine69 · 01/09/2023 14:46

Dizzybelle · 30/08/2023 15:08

If you are talking post WW2, Poland absolutely did not annex any part of Germany. After Poland, and the rest of Eastern Europe, was effectively given to Stalin, to become a soviet satellite, by Churchill and Roosevelt, at Potsdam in 1945 - and Poland had zero say in this. They were not even allowed to participate in these “negotiations”. Subsequently, as some sort of “compensation”to Poles was given - for having lost land to the east, to Stalin, they - Churchill, Stalin & Roosevelt moved Polands borders west to encompass former German lands.

In all of this Poland had no say, they were utterly powerless. Poland was doing any of the annexation.

Show quote history

I know that the Poles had no influence in changes of their borders. That doesn't change the fact that Poland is in possession of land that formerly belonged to Germany. Nobody is expecting them to give it back.

Israel is in possession of land that formerly belonged to Palestinians. Nobody is expecting them to give it back.

Nobody alive today had any say in what was transferred from one country or another, whether it is land or treasures. In many cases you wouldn't want them to give it back. I don't know who owns the diamond mines that up till about 1948 belonged to the Nizam of Hyderabad. I hope diamonds are sold and the money used to help the people on India. I don't think we should give the mines back to his son or grandson.

Barbadossunset · 01/09/2023 15:16

The former GDR had a practice which was theft dressed up as something else.:

Kommerzielle Koordinierung or KoKo which was run by a Stasi officer as a means for raising money for 1980s for the increasingly impoverished East Germany - for example they would sell prisoners to the West (and would give long sentences as the longer the sentence the higher the price).
There was an all embracing surveillance system and when they got to hear of a citizen being in possession of a possibly valuable work of art - or in a one case, stamp collection - they didn’t actually confiscate the item but would then send in a high tax bill so that the owner was forced to hand over the work of art in lieu.
I don’t know whether anyone hasn’t tried to claim back property taken in this way.

Barbadossunset · 01/09/2023 15:17

In many cases you wouldn't want them to give it back.

SuePine in which cases would you want them to give it back?

nidgey · 01/09/2023 16:02

SuePine69 · 01/09/2023 14:46

I know that the Poles had no influence in changes of their borders. That doesn't change the fact that Poland is in possession of land that formerly belonged to Germany. Nobody is expecting them to give it back.

Israel is in possession of land that formerly belonged to Palestinians. Nobody is expecting them to give it back.

Nobody alive today had any say in what was transferred from one country or another, whether it is land or treasures. In many cases you wouldn't want them to give it back. I don't know who owns the diamond mines that up till about 1948 belonged to the Nizam of Hyderabad. I hope diamonds are sold and the money used to help the people on India. I don't think we should give the mines back to his son or grandson.

Show quote history

Eh people are certainly lobbying for the restoration of much territory particularly when taken by force! Land is obviously different than artefacts, and the Parthenon marbles is a fairly clear-cut case.

SuePine69 · 01/09/2023 16:25

Barbadossunset · 01/09/2023 15:17

In many cases you wouldn't want them to give it back.

SuePine in which cases would you want them to give it back?

You might think that I would have a problem with the return of the Parthenon marbles or Benin Bronzes but actually I don't. We could say to the Greeks give us a year and we can make accurate copies. Then we keep the copies and give the originals back to you.

Even more so the Benin Bronzes. Something like them can go to different parts of the world in exhibitions. Maybe the Nigerians could keep them part of the year and then they go to New York, Tokyo or wherever for part of the year. They belong to the world really. Do they belong to the world, to the Nigerians or to the Edo people? It doesn't really matter if plenty of people get to see them.

Barbadossunset · 01/09/2023 16:36

SuePine do you think individuals should have stolen property returned or only museums?

wightwine · 02/09/2023 11:51

SuePine69 · 01/09/2023 16:25

You might think that I would have a problem with the return of the Parthenon marbles or Benin Bronzes but actually I don't. We could say to the Greeks give us a year and we can make accurate copies. Then we keep the copies and give the originals back to you.

Even more so the Benin Bronzes. Something like them can go to different parts of the world in exhibitions. Maybe the Nigerians could keep them part of the year and then they go to New York, Tokyo or wherever for part of the year. They belong to the world really. Do they belong to the world, to the Nigerians or to the Edo people? It doesn't really matter if plenty of people get to see them.

Show quote history

So, SuePine, the Greeks/Europeans can have their property back but the Nigerians property 'belongs to the world really'. Really?

SuePine69 · 02/09/2023 12:06

If the person is still alive that might be possible but not always desirable. If they are dead then who would you return it to? The example I gave was the Nizam of Hyderabad with his diamond mines.

In 1860 Lord Elgin, ordered troops to loot and destroy both the Summer Palace and Old Summer Palace to avenge the killing of several British envoys to Beijing. The Xianfeng Emperor lost of precious things some of them probably ending up in the British Museum with the Greek marbles.

The Xianfeng Emperor wasn't ethnic Chinese, he was a Manchu. The Manchus conquered China and acquired its wealth. Was that stealing? So who should we give it all back to? Any descendants of the Xianfeng Emperor? The Manchu people? The Chinese government? The Taiwanese government?

At the same time the Xianfeng Emperor lost a lot of territory to the Russians. They're not going to give it back. That was more important than trinkets. The Chinese government seem to think that everywhere that was part of the Manchu empire should now belong to them. That's why they want Taiwan back, although they don't seem to be bothered about the Russian annexations or Mongolia either although the Emperor controlled that too.

The Poles didn't have any say in how they acquired German territory after WW2 but they did 25 years earlier when they occupied Ukrainian, Belorussian and Lithuanian territory. This included the cities of Vilnius and Lviv. Was that stealing? It's just as well they did because it stopped large numbers of Ukrainians from starving to death in Stalin's deliberate famine. Just goes to show how you can't see history in terms of black and white, heroes and villains.

Dizzybelle · 02/09/2023 14:10

SuePine69 · 02/09/2023 12:06

If the person is still alive that might be possible but not always desirable. If they are dead then who would you return it to? The example I gave was the Nizam of Hyderabad with his diamond mines.

In 1860 Lord Elgin, ordered troops to loot and destroy both the Summer Palace and Old Summer Palace to avenge the killing of several British envoys to Beijing. The Xianfeng Emperor lost of precious things some of them probably ending up in the British Museum with the Greek marbles.

The Xianfeng Emperor wasn't ethnic Chinese, he was a Manchu. The Manchus conquered China and acquired its wealth. Was that stealing? So who should we give it all back to? Any descendants of the Xianfeng Emperor? The Manchu people? The Chinese government? The Taiwanese government?

At the same time the Xianfeng Emperor lost a lot of territory to the Russians. They're not going to give it back. That was more important than trinkets. The Chinese government seem to think that everywhere that was part of the Manchu empire should now belong to them. That's why they want Taiwan back, although they don't seem to be bothered about the Russian annexations or Mongolia either although the Emperor controlled that too.

The Poles didn't have any say in how they acquired German territory after WW2 but they did 25 years earlier when they occupied Ukrainian, Belorussian and Lithuanian territory. This included the cities of Vilnius and Lviv. Was that stealing? It's just as well they did because it stopped large numbers of Ukrainians from starving to death in Stalin's deliberate famine. Just goes to show how you can't see history in terms of black and white, heroes and villains.

You return it - what ever the object is, to the nation that it was taken from.

SerendipityJane · 02/09/2023 14:19

You return it - what ever the object is, to the nation that it was taken from.

Seems like we have arrived at the start again

Not all nations on the map now existed even 40 years ago. Let alone one or two centuries ago.

Barbadossunset · 02/09/2023 14:53

That's why they want Taiwan back, although they don't seem to be bothered about the Russian annexations or Mongolia either although the Emperor controlled that too.

I wonder if they’re bothered at the mass destruction of irreplaceable buildings, antiques and artefacts destroyed on the order of Chairman Mao.

Barbadossunset · 02/09/2023 14:54

You return it - what ever the object is, to the nation that it was taken from.

Dizzybelle does that apply to every museum in the world?

Barbadossunset · 02/09/2023 14:56

If the person is still alive that might be possible but not always desirable. If they are dead then who would you return it to?

The person’s descendants as in the various cases of art looted from Jewish families by the Nazis?

Fimofriend · 02/09/2023 15:01

@Sometimeswinning What are you on about? It has been proven without a doubt that the Parthenon marbles were stolen by Lord Elgin. He bribed a high-ranking Turkish official to look the other way. The Turkish government, who ruled Greece at the time, had NOT approved the removal of the marbles. It was theft and just like now it was also then a crime to buy stolen goods.

AtLastShrugs · 02/09/2023 15:08

Barbadossunset · 02/09/2023 14:53

That's why they want Taiwan back, although they don't seem to be bothered about the Russian annexations or Mongolia either although the Emperor controlled that too.

I wonder if they’re bothered at the mass destruction of irreplaceable buildings, antiques and artefacts destroyed on the order of Chairman Mao.

Yes, the cultural revolution is widely considered a horrific nightmare that is regretted by the whole nation. There is an entire genre of modern Chinese literature called 'scar fiction' about experiences of that time and massive attention and care given to the artefacts and buildings that were hidden/protected and survived.

Barbadossunset · 02/09/2023 15:11

Yes, the cultural revolution is widely considered a horrific nightmare that is regretted by the whole nation. There is an entire genre of modern Chinese literature called 'scar fiction' about experiences of that time and massive attention and care given to the artefacts and buildings that were hidden/protected and survived.

Thank you for your interesting post. I was unaware of that. Were any of the Red Guards ever punished for what they did?

Dizzybelle · 02/09/2023 15:26

Barbadossunset · 02/09/2023 14:54

You return it - what ever the object is, to the nation that it was taken from.

Dizzybelle does that apply to every museum in the world?

Yes, in an ideal world, this would apply to every museum. If something has been proven to have been stolen, or taken without permission then it should be returned, where ever possible.

Original poster
SurpriseSparDay · 02/09/2023 15:49

Even more so the Benin Bronzes. Something like them can go to different parts of the world in exhibitions. Maybe the Nigerians could keep them part of the year and then they go to New York, Tokyo or wherever for part of the year. They belong to the world really. Do they belong to the world, to the Nigerians or to the Edo people? It doesn't really matter if plenty of people get to see them.

Shock

You actually wrote these words?

Fucking hell…

OP posts:
Sometimeswinning · 02/09/2023 15:59

Fimofriend · 02/09/2023 15:01

@Sometimeswinning What are you on about? It has been proven without a doubt that the Parthenon marbles were stolen by Lord Elgin. He bribed a high-ranking Turkish official to look the other way. The Turkish government, who ruled Greece at the time, had NOT approved the removal of the marbles. It was theft and just like now it was also then a crime to buy stolen goods.

Well not quite. There is more a question as to whether he should have removed fixed artefacts.

I genuinely find it all very interesting and have obviously missed where it was proven (not speculated) that he stole them. (Which would not shock me. He wasn’t a very nice person) If you could send me the link I’d actually like to read it. TIA.

SerendipityJane · 02/09/2023 17:45

Were any of the Red Guards ever punished for what they did?

What ? Obeying orders

Barbadossunset · 02/09/2023 18:27

What ? Obeying orders

You could say that about Nazi orders. Also after German reunification the border guards who shot and killed the last two escapees over the Berlin Wall were tried in court though they too were obeying orders.

Fimofriend · 02/09/2023 21:06

@Sometimeswinning I have found several articles. I am sure you can too. Try
www.google.com

Google

http://www.google.com

Sometimeswinning · 02/09/2023 21:54

@Fimofriend ah ok. Also known as I can’t share any link because it doesn’t exist!

Also not everything you read on Google is true.

The majority of people believe he stole them. As it is the British museum stand by the fact he had permission. There is no proof he didn’t, apart from Elgins word. There is no way to disprove this and Parliament back in the day decided he was to be believed. So that’s where we are. There is no proof beyond a doubt. There is speculation which is where you became confused.

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