‘As ye sow, so shall ye reap.’ The British Museum; the writhing …

[SurpriseSparDay]

I can’t be the only person utterly fascinated by the level of distraught handwringing disbelief the British Museum is experiencing right now.

Theft, eh?

How, pray, did this great institution acquire the artefacts contained therein? How?

the idea if repatriation is not a new one. Maybe educate yourself on this whole issue before making these tiresome comments.

The removal was deemed legal. You may say stolen. The law doesn't. Therefore they belong to the BM. They are not just citing safeguarding as to why they should stay. There is way more to the argument. Both sides make good points. They also both make bad points.

Perhaps read about it. It's actually very interesting.

The removal was deemed legal. You may say stolen. The law doesn't.

Whose law ?

It was decided when they came to Britain after an outcry it would go to Parliment who found Elgin had not taken them illegally. (How fair this is is down to you to decide) There were alot of other powerful people who felt he shouldn't have removed them.

Then a few years ago it was brought to the European Court of Human rights by Greece. It was thrown out.

Amal Clooney got involved recently and the upshot was that Greece would not go to court to dispute it.

Thanks I’ve read extensively about it, Elgin’s workman who removed some of the metopes even said he had to be ‘barbarous’ in the removal. They may have been deemed legally removed by the British government but they weren’t exactly impartial. You might want to read some of this
https://www.culture.gov.gr/DocLib/appendix4.pdf

There are very few serious classicists or archaeologists who think they shouldn’t be returned. There’s no justification for the BM to keep them, it’s obnoxious imperialism to do so

I don't for one second believe you have read extensively. I think you have seen a bit of information. Judged. End of.

Therefore I find it difficult to add anything to what I've said over the thread.

(Apart from the fact not many people actually visit the museum in Athens!)

The Acropolis Museum? It’s one of the most popular sights in Athens. Quick Google search tells me there were just under 1.5 million visitors last year, of which I was one. It’s a world-class museum.

A quick Google tells me the BM had 6 million. I was also 1 of them. So quite a few million more got to appreciate the Marbles (for free!)

Are you saying I’m lying? Your ‘belief’ is based on such scant evidence that it means nothing. I work in museology, have a PhD in an ancillary discipline and have expertise in the whole area. At this stage there’s very little justification for the government not to change the law and for the BM not to repatriate the sculptures (and a fair bit more of its collection), and seeing the fallacious, wrong headed and jingoistic arguments on here wouldn’t wash with anyone who actually understands the field in an international context. The BM is deeply politicised especially since the appointment of the current board/chair so yet again Britain is an outlier in this.

How is that any kind of argument? They belong with the rest of the sculptures so the whole scheme can be appreciated in its entirety

By less people.

Its a good argument. As the expert you say you are I thought you'd have known this is an argument for the BM keeping the Marbles.

Luckily your PhD has enabled you to disagree and put forward a good argument 🤣 Im kidding. (Let's ignore the fact that I think the Marbles should return to Greece, I have said it in most of my posts!)

Of course it's all about the countries and who wins. What else would it be? Greece could have the Marbles but only on the terms of the BM. Neither side is backing down on that.

Just heard a fascinating interview about this on the Today programme, Radio 4:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66615589.amp

(The relevant part was the museum representative arguing that they had believed the museum acquired the pole legitimately, so it took a lot of investigation to arrive at a different interpretation.)

The BM - which I also visited last year, as well as this one - is one of the world’s top museums in terms of visitor numbers, scope and scale.

For the Acropolis Museum to have a quarter of the BM’s visitor numbers absolutely confirms it as a major museum. Then consider that it isn’t a ‘museum of everywhere’, but has a very specific scope.

When I was at the BM last month I went to see their current Chinese exhibition and had a quick look at some of the Roman exhibits while I was there. I didn’t visit the Marbles. Nor on the visit or two before that. Whereas the Parthenon frieze accounts for the whole top floor in the museum in Athens and is the centrepiece of the whole collection.

Why is more visitor numbers a basis to refuse to give them back? The BM's argument that they're keeping them for 'all humankind' is deeply patronising.
The Acropolis Museum is literally a museum of the site and includes as many surviving sculptures from the different structures there as possible. Most other countries have sent back what fragments they have in recognition of this. It's also extremely beautiful and well designed (unlike the current position of the parthenon sculptures in the BM).
That the sculptures would be damaged in transit seems highly unlikely - there are specialist art handlers who deal with priceless material every day - the BM continually lone precious artefacts so that's hardly an argument.
The legality or not of their removal is highly debatable - most scholars agree that the only verifiable document is one which permitted Elgin to sketch the sculptures and remove what stone had already fallen - not to hack them off the actual building.

Why is more visitor numbers a basis to refuse to give them back?

Because our gang is bigger than your gang ?

The legality or not of their removal is highly debatable - most scholars agree that the only verifiable document is one which permitted Elgin to sketch the sculptures and remove what stone had already fallen - not to hack them off the actual building.

Exactly. But even if it was agreed that removal wasn't legal, just wait for "possession is 9/10ths of the law".

The idea of the British as some sort of superhero saviours of world heritage is rather amusing to those people who know it was possible to rent chisels to allow you to sake souvenir chunks of Stonehenge home with you long after the Elgin Marbles were in Russell Square.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/stonehenge-visitors-used-be-handed-chisels-take-home-souvenirs-180949976/

You're talking over 100 years ago to be fair. If you were talking today you would have a point. But you're not.

Because more people have the chance to see them? I didn't think that needed explaining. It's one of 2 points I do kind of agree with.

Does that mean all museums should be in places with the highest population? Why not send them to Beijing then? The Louvre which has more than 9 million visitors every year have said they will lend (long term) their Parthenon sculptures to Greece, and the Vatican restituted their Parthenon sculptures - they also have more visitors than the BM annually (6.88 million).

The sculptures were not only taken to Britain under dodgy circumstances, they are completely identified with Athens given they are from the temple dedicated to the patron of the city - and the original building is still there, as are many of the sculptures that survived. If the sculptures were restituted, they would be installed alongside the other fragments, giving a more complete sense of the original context - and probably drawing more visitors.

The BM may profit from keeping them but there's no moral justification. And they really haven't cared for their collections properly - as per the current scandal - and even with the parthenon sculptures which were badly damaged by the use of abrasive cleaners to make them look whiter.

I am wondering if our expanding population is affecting life - I’m not saying immigrants are to blame - many ‘immigrants ‘ have been here for decades but the population has gone up by 20% since the 60s but have the numbers of police, courts, teachers, doctors, nurses and everyone else? Ir is the same or less - hence the possibility for people to Nick things, damage things, steal bikes and just run away, So much is just out of control.

Other European countries have not increased like this.

Working out who is an 'occupying power' is not as easy as you might think. Indonesia is an 'occupying power' of Irian Jaya. Turkey is an 'occupying power' of parts of Kurdistan. China is an 'occupying power' of Tibet and Xinjiang.

Perhaps in hundreds of years the people of Turkish Kurdistan will have adopted Turkish language and culture and regard themselves as loyal Turks. That has happened all over the world. People in Greece whose grandparents spoke Bulgarian now speak standard Greek. There is a lot of Slavic ancestry in Greece that isn't talked about. They prefer to think of themselves as descendants of Ancient Greek philosophers.