‘As ye sow, so shall ye reap.’ The British Museum; the writhing …

[SurpriseSparDay]

I can’t be the only person utterly fascinated by the level of distraught handwringing disbelief the British Museum is experiencing right now.

Theft, eh?

How, pray, did this great institution acquire the artefacts contained therein? How?

The more important issue right now is surely why these things weren’t catalogued in 200 years and why only certain people at the BM have felt the need to resign.

So, had it not been for Elgin the marbles would have been destroyed? In an ideal world he would have saved them for Greece. He saved them for himself. You're arguing like I don't think they should be returned. I do. I'm just not stupid enough to not see the other side of the argument. It's not clear cut as "they're ours!"

I don’t agree with the argument that items shouldn’t be returned because less people will view them. The general public isn’t inherently owed access to the cultural heritage of other peoples, especially when it’s to the disbenefit of those people and their country.

I just feel it’s quite entitled and imperialist to suggest that a blatant symbol of Empire like the BM is morally correct to refuse to return items acquired through theft/ deceit/ coercion on the basis it’s a better custodian. Better for who? British cultural power, a government who doesn’t want to appear woke and British people. The global audience is comprised of people who can choose to travel to countries of origin if they really want to see certain artefacts.

Yes, you said they should be returned.

But how do you think any Greeks in an occupied country could have done anything? Because that's what you said. "But I'm struggling to see anyone else from Greece who rocked up". They weren't in a position to.

There's 8 million items in the British Museum collection. If they checked each item once a year, assuming a five day working week, and an 8 hour day, museum staff would need to be confirming over 3,900 per HOUR. So I doubt they have the staff for a full annual audit of every item.

Regardless of how the museum acquired some of its items I don’t think it’s at all becoming to gloat over the fact that many of those stolen items have now been destroyed. It’s rather grim.

It took over 100 years to ask for them back.

I feel like I'm arguing for them to stay! I'm not. However it's disingenuous to assume they can just claim them back and not consider that part of their history is not British. It is.

Hence why it would make sense that they belong to the BM. Legally brought and preserved (Far better than they would have been in Greece) On loan to Greece because thats where their roots are. Everyone is happy. (Apart from the fact not many people actually visit the museum in Athens!)

I volunteered there during my MA in the early 2000s and we were cataloging excavation material from the early 20th century. There have never been the resources to catalogue the whole collection. Even back then I was surprised how little curators and other staff member were paid - and on top of that they are one of the few London museums who don’t pay london weighting. The staff who actually do the day to day running of the museum are there because they love their jobs, and take the care of the collection seriously. The deputy director who has been there through multiple directors should resign too, not just step back in the hope that he can somehow hang onto his job. The top jobs at institutions like that should be time limited.

Fascinating insight, @exarchaeologist!

I work in a similar cultural institution and completely agree. People with PhDs working on £28 k have huge commitment but no resources

If the BM can’t paid the staff properly then more of this will come out.

WHY aren’t they paying staff properly? They have assets worth incalculable amounts.

It's public funds that's why.

They don't pay staff properly because I imagine they know that people dream of working at the BM - basically they can exploit people as the management seem to have the attitude that everyone is easily replaced and should be happy just to work there for the honour. I know a few people who work there currently and there is a lot of dissatisfaction and recent strikes over pay and conditions - staff are passionate about their work, but there is a feeling that skills are not valued and there are regular restructures of departments - which according to friends are driven by the deputy director - with redundancies of highly experienced staff who are a real asset to the museum. It is all very strange.

I guess when people in senior management work somewhere for a long time and feel they hold all the power then organisations can become one individual's personal fiefdom which may or may not be the case at the BM!

They don't pay staff properly because I imagine they know that people dream of working at the BM - basically they can exploit people as the management seem to have the attitude that everyone is easily replaced and should be happy just to work there for the honour.

The arts and heritage sector in a nutshell sadly.

Hmmm,

England is similarly an occupied country - taken by the Normans by force of might from the previously "legitimate" Saxon rulers (who themselves took it by force from the previous lodgers ...)

And the US is most definitely an occupied territory. Taken by force of arms and (smallpox) from it's previous owners. A fact their own legal system acknowledges (notice how despite the US ruling, the US government hasn't bothered to honour it. Make of that what you will when Americans lectures the world about law and order).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Sioux_Nation_of_Indians

I'm not that into artefacts and trinkets except as literal landmarks to the past and the stories they tell. I am much less concerned where the Elgin Marbles are stored (which is only a heartbeat of time in their existence) and much more interested in the what they tell us about the people that made them and had them made and that saw them in situ in their day.

So TL;DR is define an "occupied" country. Your answer should consider cases where the occupying force were "legitimately invited" to help ensure order such as Austria in 1938 which was the result of a referendum to invite Germany to take over. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschluss

Glad I chose computers for my career. History seems really hard.

You can’t sell the collections to pay staff if that’s what you’re implying.

I am strongly implying that they cannot have precious items looked after by underpaid staff. They will need to square that.

Why not ? It works in education, health and policing.

I think the British Museum is a fitting tribute to the largest Organised Crime syndicate in history, ie the British Empire.

Not so sure about that. It was only a blink of an eye compared to various Egyptian, Greek, Roman and Mongol efforts. Not saying it lacked the ambition though ....

Perhaps, but the British Organised Crime Syndicate is the only one still handing out medals for being a member.

OP, you know trends move on. You think that regurgitating ‘progressive’ manufactured outrage at everything British makes you sound more enlightened. It will make you look like an idiot in the future. If it doesn’t already.

Ha! If you saw me, you’d realise just how offensive your comment is, @Wsmi.

But you do you …

Fair point.

They were hacked off (damaging the stone beneath) and absolutely stolen. The BM refused to give them back saying they were safeguarding them - seeing as they can’t even manage to oversee basic inventory procedures competently that argument just doesn’t wash