‘As ye sow, so shall ye reap.’ The British Museum; the writhing …

[SurpriseSparDay]

I can’t be the only person utterly fascinated by the level of distraught handwringing disbelief the British Museum is experiencing right now.

Theft, eh?

How, pray, did this great institution acquire the artefacts contained therein? How?

Wow so unique, you're the first person to create a thread about this and LOL at the irony.

Lots weren't stolen by the way but modern governments have contested that they werent authorised to be given by the 'correct' people. How they can really prove this hundreds of years on is unclear. There are some that were taken by force and without permission but its not the majority as many seem to suggest.

Britain saved the Elgin marbles from destruction 🙄

Oh, I don’t suppose I am! But I haven’t seen the others.

I am gripped! I am waiting for the Netflix doc then the BBC mini-series starring Anthony Head.

It’s the new Crooked House.

That doesn’t mean we have a right to keep them.

Acquired by a great range of means including purchase, inheritance, excavation, gift….
It is not illegal to buy things from other countries.
Some of the collections in the British Museum were acquired through looting in time of war or through means which were legal but against a background of colonialism which created a power imbalance against the source country. It is a very large collection dating back hundreds of years.

I agree, OP. The BM is the cultural embodiment of British exceptionalism and the facade has crumbled.

🙄

Well now there is no chance of them being destroyed Britain can give them back then.

There's a difference between getting something by right of conquest and getting something by stealing. When Germany was defeated in 1945 Russia was the authority and did what it saw fit.

Russia annexed the area around Konigsberg. Poland annexed large areas of Germany including Breslau and Stettin. You can't really call this stealing and nobody would suggest that Russia and Poland should give all this land back to Germany.

You could say that the British and other Europeans looted Beijing. However, this was in revenge for the Manchu emperor murdering British and European ambassadors. Torturing them to death, in fact. Perhaps if we can find a descendent of the Manchu emperor, who wasn't ethnic Chinese, we should give all the porcelain, jade, ivory etc. I don't see a reason why it belongs to the Communist party of China.

There's a difference between getting something by right of conquest and getting something by stealing.

There's a Mercedes the British troops captured from the Argentines during the Falklands at RAF Cosford. With a notice explaining that it was used for years in RAF bases in Germany until it needed a spare part. When the mechanics contacted Mercedes, they initially refused to help as the car was listed as "stolen". There was a court case where the British showed they had legally acquired the vehicle as spoils of war and Mercedes had to pony up.

Yet the rest of the sculptures remain and are on display in Athens.

Clearly enough to go round then.

One of the fascinating outcomes of this debate (and I suspect it is very unwelcome in some quarters) is the spotlight it shines on exactly what the great Imperial powers were up to in the past. Even artefacts that appear to have a solid provenance may be questioned as to how that provenance was actually acquired. There is a long and proud history of Britain supporting "the right side" rather than "the legal side" in it's buccaneering. Especially in India.

However that said, it's also known that some totally legitimate regimes at the time did gift - or sell - artefacts to the British. Just because something is alien in a museum doesn't make it a priori stolen.

Clearly enough to go round then What an odd position to take.

The Parthenon marbles in question weren't for sale. They were stolen.

It was a joke.

And I'll precis what followed as "it's complicated".

Not everything in a museum outside it's place of origin (assuming we agree something made with Indian gems found in an Essex field aren't on the list to be returned as "stolen") is there illegitimately.

Depending whose laws you follow.

Personally I'd like the Elgin saga to conclude with their being returned with the 2 century interval characterised as "an extended tour". However I am also aware that the subsequent calls for other items to be returned would still need to be considered on a case by case basis.

OP I have been pondering this as I've been unwell and it didn't really come to my attention till yesterday.Items sold on ebay I'm guessing were in a vault somewhere? Wondering if there was a group trying to profit off stuff not on display, or what.

Totally blows apart the justification that national museums & galleries are best equipped to safeguard objects for the world/future generations. Do they not catalogue their collections or regularly audit them? Were they relying on the fact that their employees are all 'good chaps' and not going to steal? Beggars belief really.

I don't think anyone has proved or disproved this. It was 200 years ago and even though I think Elgin was a pompous idiot and the Parthenon Marbles should be returned it's not as clear cut to say they were stolen.

“Over the years, Greek authorities and the international scientific community have demonstrated with unshakeable arguments the true events surrounding the removal of the Parthenon sculptures,” she said. “Lord Elgin used illicit and inequitable means to seize and export the Parthenon sculptures, without real legal permission to do so, in a blatant act of serial theft.”

I am inclined to feel this is closest to the truth.

We're so lucky that apparently the only museum in the world which has artefacts from all around the world, seems to be the British Museum in London, proud to be British....

Yeah I'm not sure your feeling that this is the truth is going to change the palimentary decision made back then. As it stands they were legally obtained therefore they will not be returned.

Please read where I said I dislike Elgin and believe they should be returned. But until it is proven that the Marbles were stolen the British Museum would be crazy to start returning items!

I've never understood the obsession with the Elgin marbles tbh. They're just not that interesting. I'd give them back happily and everyone could stop banging on about them.

Whilst we have to accept that Elgin acted lawfully, the fact that Greece was under Ottoman rule at the time compromises this in the eyes of many - including Greece.

I believe they should be returned but don't think they will.