To think that it’s ridiculous to offer prisoners ‘incentives’ for attending verdict/sentencing hearings - it’s connected to Lucy Letby.

[pam290358]

Just heard on the news that Lucy Letby has again refused to attend court - this time for sentencing today. There are now calls for tougher sentences for those who won’t attend court, but an ‘expert’ on the BBC is of the opinion that that won’t work for people already facing long sentences/whole life terms. The alternative view is that they should be offered ‘incentives’ to do so, such as privileges in prison or live streaming the proceedings from their cell.

I’m not an advocate of dragging them kicking and screaming into the dock because I don’t think it benefits anyone - least of all the victims’ families who are already traumatised enough, but I must admit to being strongly against offering incentives for something I feel should be mandatory anyway. What do others think ?

So you wanted her dragged up from the cells? So you could see her reaction to her hearing her sentence? Why?

Who do you think should have done that?

I'm sorry Nolongera spoke to you like that. I don't work in the prison estate but visited them often enough in my early career. I'd expect a forensic mental health practitioner to speak to an ex-offender with far more respect and common decency. To scoff at your lived experience is disgusting.

It can't be easy seeing the extremely heated discussion around crime and punishment at the moment, I hope you have some good support around you and that you're not set back in your reintegration at all.

I didn’t say that. I think refusing to attend shouldn’t be a legal option, it’s not an option for the trial.

Jeez this thread is uncomfortable reading.

I'd like to see penalties introduced for prisoners who won't attend sentencing. I don't think they should necessarily be forced to attend when the verdict is read out because until that point they are not a convicted criminal.

I think the penalties should be fairly straightforward based on something like this:
Sentence if they'd attended: fine or community service
Sentence if they don't attend: two years in prison plus above

Sentence if they'd attended: any non-life prison sentence
Sentence if they don't attend: life imprisonment with parole possible after 30 years

Sentence if they'd attended: life term with parole possible at some point
Sentence if they don't attend: life without parole

Sentence if they'd attended: life without parole
Sentence if they don't attend: life without parole plus regular torture sessions

The harsher sentence would also apply if they do attend but are disruptive or abusive. The torture would be stuff that will make their lives horrible but not normally kill them.

But why?

Prisoners who are unwilling or combative are only going to harm themselves and others. Sentencing is a very highly emotionally charged event for all involved. It would do no good to force someone to be there.

Haha @Dotjones that's just not going to happen

How ridiculous

This is why it is important to have emotional distance from crime and legislation about prisoners. Legislation about prisoners should have at the forefront rehabilitation and public safety in mind and it has to honour human rights and treat people like people with dignity no matter what they have done.

Letting emotions no matter how justified get in the way.

This whole thread is full of people expressing gleeful pleasure at the idea of causing another person harm. Its actually pretty disturbing if take a step back from it.

*letting emotions no matter how justified get in the way is harmful to civilised society.

Sorry I dont know how I managed to post that with out finishing my sentence.

Life in prison for the act of refusing to attend a court hearing is a sentence completely out of proportion to the "crime".

Advocating torture sessions? For not attending a court hearing? Are you for real? Wtf is wrong with you.

"I cant imagine how someone could do something so evil" says someone who thinks state torture for not attending a court hearing is appropriate prison treatment. Honestly can't believe what i have just read.

Defendants can and sometimes do refuse to attend trials. Trials can be and are held without them. There is CPS guidance on the issue. It's common enough that we have legislation and procedures dealing with the question of what to do.

@Dolores87 me either!!

Not one person advocating for this would last 5 mins working in a prison! Very flippant to say 'do this' or 'do that'...

Life in prison for the act of refusing to attend a court hearing is a sentence completely out of proportion to the "crime".

As is two years in prison for an otherwise non-custodial sentence! This sentencing non-attendance has become a weird national obsession, with people outgoing each other with ever more lurid fantasies and utterly disproportionate punishments.

Yes, it’s disrespectful to families and other loved ones of the victims of serious crime. They need support, not for the justice system to degrade itself by indulging the mob. Anyone not directly affected is owed nothing here and frankly it’s rather strange to be so exercised by it.

Prisoners hugely outnumber the guards and previous riots have seen guards held hostage and tortured to death etc.

It's not in anyone's interest to piss off the prisoners to the point where they fight back. Not like they have much to lose in many cases.

Wouldn’t disagree with any of that, but the statement I replied to was ‘You can’t punish a pedophile for being a pedophile it’s the same here. You’re no better than them’. So I don’t think it unreasonable to ask if they would feel the same if their child had suffered at the hands of a paedophile.

So very MN that I was deleted for suggesting you’re a t*l rather than deleting your fucking insane post about state sanctioned torture in the UK.

Well no, not really. I don’t agree with anything in that post, but free speech means they have a right to express an opinion and deleting it would be censorship. Whereas deleting your own was perfectly reasonable in response to you breaking talk guidelines with a personal attack on another poster.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66660136

Govt to change the law on sentencing attendance.

'Confirmed plans'. Mmm. Believe it when I see it!

Governments announce a lot. I will believe it when I see it.

No draft legislation. Fourth session of Parliament starting in November and no clear legislative vehicle for the power. No criteria on how judges should or should not use this power announced. Still this idea of adding to sentences for non-compliance when the baying mobs will only want it for cases which will be whole of life anyway. And a good chance of it falling down when challenged on human rights grounds.

I wouldn't hold my breath.