To think that it’s ridiculous to offer prisoners ‘incentives’ for attending verdict/sentencing hearings - it’s connected to Lucy Letby.

[pam290358]

Just heard on the news that Lucy Letby has again refused to attend court - this time for sentencing today. There are now calls for tougher sentences for those who won’t attend court, but an ‘expert’ on the BBC is of the opinion that that won’t work for people already facing long sentences/whole life terms. The alternative view is that they should be offered ‘incentives’ to do so, such as privileges in prison or live streaming the proceedings from their cell.

I’m not an advocate of dragging them kicking and screaming into the dock because I don’t think it benefits anyone - least of all the victims’ families who are already traumatised enough, but I must admit to being strongly against offering incentives for something I feel should be mandatory anyway. What do others think ?

This. On a 24/7 loop.

Then again, if you’re twisted enough to do what she did, will it even impact you? Little bitch, it was her last piece of power play over these families

Sedate them first.

I agree

Why is it unpleasant to want to see someone’s face when they’re sentenced, if they’ve just been convicted of killing your baby ? And why should these criminals be spared attendance at court to hear victim impact statements ? LL didn’t want to attend court for the verdict or the sentencing. Because she hasn’t got the guts to face those whose lives she wrecked. I’m not advocating dragging them kicking and screaming because that’s just ore trauma for the victims, but I think it’s outrageous to suggests that they are rewarded for attendance.

What difference does it make if she doesn't attend? It's not like she's not going to find out her sentence. Just don't understand this mob mentality of everyone needing to see it.

I agree.

That’s why criminals don’t want to attend court - so they don’t have to look at what they’ve done.

I'm surprised you think you know what their motivation is. From what I've read, the only time Letby seemed upset was when talking about the doctor she was infatuated with. I think you're probably mistaken if you think that facing the victims' parents in court would have much effect on her if she's already not very affected by the babies' lives she took. The punishment is the sentence.

Not incentives but penalties eg loss of privileges or a fine to come out of their commissionary account, deprivation of certain “ luxury” foods ,no tv etc — something that makes their initial period of imprisonment more uncomfortable

I don’t think it’s about whether she’s affected or not, it’s more about giving the families the opportunity to have their say - even if it falls on deaf ears, if it helps them get closure.

As said above it just causes more problems for the poor prison staff who want to go home to their families unharmed. I've been working on a construction job at a local woman's prison for a few months and it all kicks off surprisingly often.

There was an interesting piece on R4 this evening about this. Dragging kicking and screaming psychopaths into court is in no ones interest, but having the power and control taken away from the murderer and forcing them to hear the impact statements and their sentences - well I agree with that.

Apparently government has said it's too logistically difficult to consider live streaming to a cell where they can be made to listen but I call bollocks on that. Put it on bloody Teams.

Give the families the opportunity to know that the murderer will hear their words.

Its just totally incomprehensible to get your head around what she's done though. I thought harold shipman was evil, killing so many older ladies. But the only saving grace was these ladies had lived a long life. Not saying thats ok of course but you get what i mean. But these wee babies were just born. And some to parents who struggled to conceive. To actually want to kill these babies then come back for their brothers or sisters actually makes me feel physically sick writing that.
That's just beyond evil, beyond anything i can comprehend. All dressed up in a smiley blonde girl next door.

Terrifying.

Have you thought about how distressing that could be for some of the victims?

So she drops down enough to be put on suicide watch, or starts to self harm etc. Once again it's the prison staff who have to deal with that.

Half of the families didn't want to look at her. So which side do we pick?

She tried to go to funerals. She was very intrusive in lots of ways. She bought sympathy cards. This isn't someone who is going to be touched by victim statements. She saw the grief, she still killed again, the very next shift.

She must surely be mentally ill?

No dragging and kicking - strapped to a wheel chair into a soundproofed plastic box in the court which can receive the sound from the court

@maddening again, people might not want to see this.

The judge could ask the victims for their preference- if split there could be 2 sittings - it warrants discussion and consideration about how people's needs can and if they should be accommodated, it could be accommodated in my mind without the obtuse kicking and screaming arguments imo

That’s my bloke’s take on it too.

Wheel them in like Hannibal.

@maddening that would never happen, and nor should it. Nobody is going to run the whole thing as a two part event.

You think they're going to willing sit in this chair? How many custody staff are you going to put at risk plus remove from normal duty to force these people into this chair?

I understand why people think that a person should have to face the family, but offenders on this level simply don't give a crap about the impact they've had on family. Making them attend isn't going to make them stand there looking remorseful, quite the opposite actually. As per pp more likely to result in smirking or eye rolling etc

I don't see the point.

She knows the impact of her crimes, she doesn't care. Or she wouldn't have killed 7 babies and attempted to murder many more.

@maddening "The judge could ask the victims for their preference- if split there could be 2 sittings - it warrants discussion and consideration about how people's needs can and if they should be accommodated, it could be accommodated in my mind without the obtuse kicking and screaming arguments imo"

You do realise that cases are currently taking about 2 years to reach court after the offender is charged due to the absolute mess the court system is in?Your plan would mean more court sitting meaning more delays meaning longer waiting times for trial on other cases.

Exactly this

It's important because sentencing is part of the old principle of justice being seen to be done.

No you cannot physically drag a prisoner in. But you can certainly make them hear and see their sentence.

Why is it unpleasant to want to see someone’s face when they’re sentenced, if they’ve just been convicted of killing your baby ?

I’m sure we can all understand why this is so meaningful to the parents. In the same way I can imagine them thinking the direst of punishments aren’t sufficient. Entirely natural. The question is why so many MNers, who are not directly affected are obsessed with offenders being subject to public humiliation (being tied to boards and gagged on a related thread!) and extreme violence (any number of threads about attacks in prison).

Justice should be dispassionate and humane. Those of us who have not suffered like these families should be in a position to be more objective and see that it’s not about sympathising with killers. It’s that anything else is demeaning to us as a society. The thought of living in a society where guilty people are dragged/chained so we can be gratified by their shame and distress is disgusting.