To think British maternity care must be among the worst in the developed world?

[ForestGoblin]

Nurses refusing to watch newborns when a mum needs to poo??? Nurses have got a professional and legal obligation to support patients to receive adequate personal care (not being compelled to poo yourself has got to be rung one of meeting that obligation).

Friends who have given birth in Ireland, france, south Korea, Switzerland were all given support to sleep, recover, be recognised as an injured person in need of recovery time.

British nurses trick new mothers into thinking they can't leave their babies for a minute on a bloody hospital ward (even when they've got numb legs).

Rise up, damnit!

Women receive a very bad level of aftercare for a country that is supposedly in the top 10 wealthiest economies in the world. Nobody seems to care and the levels of negligence seem considerably higher for an ethnic minority woman and / or one from a disadvantaged position.
We need to do better.
Yes bursaries should be made available to train midwives. We have a shortage and should not rely on overseas workers, many of whom are agency staff!

Odd how this is only now becoming a realisation for some women, if you've ever spoken to a Black expectant mother, or indeed a Black patient, this would be far from news.

Odd because it's been discussed so much and more so in recent years and it's unacceptable. Unfortunately many people refuse to accept racism exists every single day for people and yes, within the NHS.

@Needspace2023 I was being slightly facetious, it's not at all odd in my view. It's similar to the recent shock around policing and general police conduct. The only tedious aspect is waiting for the shock to dissolve and await practical changes now that the line between those whose lives have been a constant fight to be treated remotely humane and those who are shocked it's happened to someone who could be their sister/friend/daughter, has been crossed.

I am so sad to read about the way you have been treated. I was a midwife in the 1970’s and 1980’s and no way would we treat our Mothers and babies badly. We cared about our patients even the few stroppy ones. I feel the NHS which was brilliant is going down the pan. God help us!

Ah I see what you mean. I personally don't feel many struggles daily as a WOC but when giving birth the first time I felt utterly vulnerable, dismissed and traumatised from the after care experience. Everything up until giving birth I could not fault and felt in good hands. It's the aftercare which is absolutely dire. I'm aware my experience is one of many.

@Needspace2023 every time maternity care comes up I always share my sister's experience in which she was told she's a "strong black woman" thus didn't require the pain relief she requested, in the absence of my other sisters and I advocating on her behalf when she was in too much pain to really make sense, I dread what may have happened to her and my niece. Much of the aftercare and psychological support we accessed privately afterwards and the wounds only healed a few years ago.

I am in the US and am so glad someone spoke up. There is a common misunderstanding that if a person does not have private insurance here, they will be burdened by huge debts for any medical care. We actually have Medicaid, a government insurance for the poor. And for pregnant women. No matter how financially disadvantaged, women will be given a private room and meals delivered at every hospital anywhere I’ve ever heard of. Ever. My baby is 34 years old. I never even saw another pregnant woman while I was in having my babies all those years ago. My husband was with me as the baby was delivered, we went back to my own private room and meals were provided, of course. Every time I see someone post “in a ward”, I am horrified. It is the most private of things, giving birth. Blood down your legs, pain, baby crying. I wouldn’t want someone else’s husband or partner to watch me walk to a communal bathroom in a gown, bleeding. It’s barbaric. Oh-and babies can be sent to the hospital nursery so new mother can sleep, shower, eat. Ob-Gyns do most deliveries. Midwives are rarer, but available if wanted. My dearest friend is a L&D nurse in an inner city hospital here and she tells me it is rare for a nurse to have to care for more than four patients, although it does happen occasionally. I don’t think people in the UK understand our system, but it’s just as hard for us to comprehend yours.

We don't actually give birth on a ward dormitory in the UK (unless the baby comes too quickly), women get moved, often on a trolley, to a labour ward where they give birth in a private area, but they often get moved back to a dormitory afterwards.

To be fair, there can be advantages to a dormitory type arrangement, from the point of view of oversight of patients.

Some of the midwives who attended me during my labour (6 days ending in section) were great, and others were awful. Great ones made me feel safe and explained things clearly - like why I couldn’t be moved to labour ward after 4 days, because of short staffing. Crap for me, but not their fault. On the other end, immediately after my c-section, as I struggled to get my daughter to latch on, my midwife got weirdly angry, started telling me baby must have tongue tie or malformed jaw, she should latch on her own and babies never need help with that unless there is something wrong, how I would struggle to feed from the breast and so on. Everything she said later contradicted by the expert lactation nurses, and I’ve been breastfeeding exclusively for six months and alongside weaning since 6 months. But she really knocked my confidence and showed strange anger for no reason at a mum 30 mins post-op. There were other weird moments of ‘care’. I guess you get good and bad in all professions.

This is appalling and I'm so very sorry she had to experience racism and negligence while giving birth and leaving you all to pick up the pieces.

There are huge gaps in Medicaid coverage, which only helps the very very poor. More people are stuck in the 'Make too much for Medicaid, don't make enough to afford insurance' hole. Or even more often, have insurance but their deductible/out of pocket is $5-10,000 which they have to pay in full.

It sounds like actual care received is much better in the US than some of these stories for which I'm very grateful. I only see private/semi private rooms and staffing is much better.

I do know, however this is regional. For Medicaid, many great hospitals and OBs do not accept it, especially in some areas. That leaves the poor with access to much worse medical care and hospital facilities than those who can afford insurance. That disparity can be huge.

It's a fine line. I'm very anti our current insurance system which causes undue stress and financial burden for no reason. But I don't want to see wards or patients treated the way many on this thread have been either.

Thank you @Needspace2023.

@MsMD

The coverage available for pregnant women is under the umbrella of Medicaid but it isn't Medicaid per se and it isn't income dependent as Medicaid is.

At the time I used it in my state it was called Kidcare. I used it because of private insurance loopholes. ExH and I had private insurance he (self employed) had bought without looking at the small print.

We had a house and an income above Medicaid levels but because maternity was not covered by the insurance we had, I could get the state coverage, and the treatment I had was excellent amd in no way different from the treatment I received using private insurance when exH had insurance through an employer.

I'm so glad that worked out for you and you got the care you deserved.

It seems to be area dependant like with this thread. In my southern, Red state the inequalities in care for paid vs. Medicaid is much more obvious. 3 of the top 4 best OB offices don't accept Medicaid, and the one that does is always very heavily booked so doesn't accept new patients too often - which leads to Medicaid patients having to go to worse offices and worse hospitals. I'm really uncomfortable with that level of inequality.

I'm also always concerned by the middle, the people no one really talks about. Patients who have work based insurance so can see a doctor, but then have to pay thousands in deductibles. They get much better care, but access to that shouldn't cost anywhere near as much as it does. Regular families shouldn't have to pay that much to have a baby, especially when many then don't get paid maternity leave!

Insurance is a scam in the US. Our level of care is outstanding if you can afford it, or qualify for Medicaid and have a great Medicaid provider. I wish that care was available to all in the US and UK. And everywhere.

The racial issues were in fact specifically called out in the investigation. and this is just one example. Black women are 4x more likely to die in childbirth than white women, and Asian women are 2x as likely.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/mar/20/conference-highlights-racial-disparity-in-uk-maternal-healthcare?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Wow that’s very bad after care . My care wasn’t great when we lived in England but since moving it’s been amazing up here in Scotland but I’m not in a populated area and I imagine it’s post code lottery . I was very surprised on how much attention they gave eme up here , I was never alone in recovery and the midwife’s were on call as soon as I needed them .

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jun/08/white-nhs-nurses-twice-as-likely-as-black-and-asian-colleagues-to-be-promoted-study

Also a factor in how maternal care impacts demographics and workplace satisfaction.
I do think the differences in care really depend on how populated the area is. My terrible care came from St Mary's Paddington, not the private section
The care at Kingston Hospital was known to be very good but I was out lime a shot the second time.

I remember calling my friend in Germany. She is German, born in Germany and is Afghan and German, mixed race you could say. She was irritated she had to get off the phone because the nurse was coming visit her home to check on her health and pelvic floor health when her baby was 6 months. Imagine! They really have it SO MUCH better as women and as mothers in other countries in the western world.
Similar, for my friend in France. I think they would be absolutely shocked at what we put up with and then the shocking fees for childcare and nursery so we can earn a living.
I visited a family member who had given birth in Tehran, in Iran where women have appaling inequalities and Tehran is a huge city like Londkn. The state run hospital was beautiful and the level of care and kindness shown. Really ours are absolutely barbaric in comparison! Women are not valued especially mothers who are seen as burdens. And if you are not white than chances are you will be treated even worse.
Sexism and racism is not obvious but absolutely rife in this country. It took being a mother for me to fully grasp that.

Are you replying to me as all I’ve done is stand up for the nurses

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-66604977

She was booked into University Hospital Wales, Cardiff, for a Caesarean on 7 May 2020.
After Clay was born, Ms Moseley-Brown lost about two-and-a-half pints of blood and needed further surgery to stem the bleeding.
"I felt really unwell and I said this to the nurses and the staff at the hospital which they didn't listen to. They kept saying it was after-pain but it was just agonising," Ms Moseley-Brown said.

She was discharged three days later, despite her concerns, after being given medication for her constipation.
"Every single night they'd say 'she's anxious, she's just anxious'. I was just given tablets for constipation and was fed lots of peppermint tea."
Two days later, she returned to hospital with stomach pain and vomiting and had a stomach X-ray and was given more treatment for constipation before being sent home again on 15 May.
Only after her third trip to the hospital, the following day, was she diagnosed with a perforated bowel and sepsis after she was struggling to breathe.
...

"I think they thought I was a mum who couldn't deal with the after pains of the C-section."

....
Cardiff and Vale health board said the perforation and events that followed would not have happened if further imaging was done and surgical opinion was arranged.

I thought of this thread when I read this - mistakes and accidents happen but it's the way she was dismissed rather than investigated that reminded me of this thread.

Not quite free in France. It operates on the basis of a co-payment system. Everyone has a ‘cadre vitale’ linking them to the national health service. You make contributions via taxation (taken immediately from your salary) and employers also make healthcare contributions for ALL of their employees (this is mandatory). Everyone is also obliged to take out an inexpensive monthly health insurance package as well, with the care of the vulnerable being subsidised by the state. I lived there for 9 years and it’s not free but more importantly it works well. I was always very happy with the care I received. Getting my wisdom teeth removed under GA was as simple as sitting down with the anaesthetist, getting our diaries out and deciding when I wanted to (and could) have it done. Think we scheduled it 2-3 weeks ahead.

see also the Netherlands (where I had both of my children, in 2018 and earlier this year). So in short I don’t think the OP is BU. The Netherlands also works on a co-payment system and based on the stories I have heard (here and IRL) I am so glad I gave birth there and not in the U.K. I had amazing continuity of care: saw the same midwife throughout both pregnancies and she delivered both of my children as well. Frequent scans and printed photos even for a standard pregnancy. Had a box delivered by my health insurance company during each pregnancy, containing items for baby (e.g. grooming kit, bath thermometer, soft toy) and for me (e.g. maternity pads), as well as kit for a home birth (e.g. rubber sheet for mattress). They do a lot of home births in NL and bed raisers were also delivered so as to not put the midwives’ and maternity nurses’ backs out. My midwife came over and examined me at home to see progression before sending me to hospital (with my first baby) and setting me up for a full (unplanned) home birth (with my second). In NL it’s also standard for a maternity nurse to visit you at home for 2-3 hours a day for 7-10 days after birth, to check you (stitches, blood pressure, temperature, diastasis recti) and the baby, to show you how to look after baby, and to help around the house (laundry, cleaning, food shopping, taking older kids to school, cooking…whatever you need or want really). All standard and covered by the system. So YES British women are getting an INCREDIBLY raw deal.

Oh and in France a 3-day stay in hospital post-birth is standard for all the reasons I have mentioned and more, including e.g. breastfeeding support. I would have HATED to be in hospital for that long and am glad that in NL it is all done at home!

This is so sad.

I was diagnosed with PTSD after my first as after being induced the midwife didn’t believe I was in labour when I was in agony and gave me paracetamol and told me to have a bath.

UK

The care I received after my youngest nearly left him dead. I will never have another child because of the care we received.