To think British maternity care must be among the worst in the developed world?

[ForestGoblin]

Nurses refusing to watch newborns when a mum needs to poo??? Nurses have got a professional and legal obligation to support patients to receive adequate personal care (not being compelled to poo yourself has got to be rung one of meeting that obligation).

Friends who have given birth in Ireland, france, south Korea, Switzerland were all given support to sleep, recover, be recognised as an injured person in need of recovery time.

British nurses trick new mothers into thinking they can't leave their babies for a minute on a bloody hospital ward (even when they've got numb legs).

Rise up, damnit!

Pretty sure Norway isn't super fussed about brexit.

Obviously anyone can go and give birth there if they're happy to pay.

Of course no one should shout, but in the age of defensive medicine 'sitting at the desk chatting' (rarely seen in the decade I've worked in hospitals but happens all the time on here) is invariably making copious notes as is required by policy.

My only other experience is Ukraine: it’s very prescriptive and scarier in that case. Everyone for example had an automatic episiotomy. I was so happy to avoid that I found solutions to being ignored. There’s no ‘can’t do this, can’t eat this, you must do this… the doctor’s say is final’ culture here, that is the case in so many places. There’s some value that should be placed on the fact it’s still pretty safe, and a lot of freedom and respect of wishes is given

100% this, my husband was the one helping most of the time. Bought me all my meals because I didn't even know where to get food from. Conversations with partners going on all through the night, men poking their heads around the curtain and into my bay, absolutely ridiculous.

I've had two babies in Scotland in last four years and found the care pretty good. I had a call bell that they were responsive to, I was brought three meals a day in bed plus plenty of water. Everyone was very busy, of course, and though I'd had a section I didn't help lifting or getting to my baby either time, so perhaps if I'd needed to call on them often my experience would be different. But our midwife picked up on an issue with DD1 and responded to it very quickly, the paeditrician came to see us on the ward several times to check on her and explain things. I got a lot of breastfeeding help with DD1 too, one lovely lady (she said she was bank staff and there to support the midwives overnight) sat with me for about three hours overnight trying to help. And when we had to stay in longer and I was visibly upset, the midwive who had been looking after us gave me a hug.

With DD2 I was left to it more, but that's because I guess I was a lot more confident, we didn't need any help with feeding, etc. But they still brought me meals, snacks, drinks, checked on me every so often, checked on DD2, and made sure we got out bang on 24 hours like I'd requested!

I don't think you can read much into those until you track it against the obesity rates. The UK has a massive obesity problem. The same applies to the stats for minority women, you have to control for higher obesity rates among different ethnic groups first.

Well yes, payment is key. My point was you can't just rock up and expect to use the state funded health provision for free.

And of course Norway is "fussed" about Brexit, being a member of the EEA and signed up to free movement (as well as approx 96% of other EU legislation).

I'm afraid I just left both DDs when I needed the loo though, it didn't really occur to me to ask anyone to watch them when they were both asleep in my cubicle on a closed ward. Maybe that was a faux pas, but no one ever said anything!

yanbu. I gave birth in Surrey 14 years ago. The care was abysmal. Not enough beds nor staff ‘because it’s Saturday’. Plus a single inexperienced midwife who thought I didn’t look far enough along without even checking my cervix. Massive regional hospital. Wtaf. I nearly gave birth in the antenatal corridor if my hi by hadn’t advocated for me while I was in active labour. It all worked out bec baby and i were healthy. ANY complication and we’d have been in serious trouble. Obviously I was also not allowed an epidural. (‘the anaesthetist is busy’). Bastards. I had serious ptsd afterwards.

Do they no longer have those little glass cots on wheels that go next to your hospital bed? I left baby in there when I went to shower or toilet.

Blame the government

So when I’ve got 12 women and 12 babies to look after entirely by myself because there’s no staff, how does that work then?

Not hyperbole. Actual practicalities. 4 women are ringing the bell needing help with breastfeeding, 2 need pain relief and one wants me to watch the baby whilst she goes to the loo.

How? Not in terms of ‘flag it with management’ etc - HOW in that moment? Because that’s the reality.

In a similar vein to what @GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing has said, I think the worry about these things pre-birth is one of the reasons women want their partners to stay so improving the care would undoubtedly create more of a safe space for women as they wouldn't feel that they need their partners on hand.

I gave birth the day before the very first lockdown so I didn't have a choice whether my partner stayed as noone was allowed. I was on the ward from 8pm until 5pm the following day, I barely drank anything because I didn't want to leave my baby to visit the kitchen, so I was limited to the tea trolley which only came around twice. Going to the toilet was a massive source of stress and tbh I'd have loved a shower. I called for a midwife to help me feed in the middle of the night as I was having difficulty latching DD on only for her to say "just latch her on" and leave, as a result my DD didn't feed much overnight or much the second day because still noone helped me until about 4pm and I couldn't wait to get home.

If I had another baby (I'm not), I would want my DH to stay to help with all those things but I recognise that that might make other women feel uncomfortable so it's a double edged sword. It was also really helpful for my DH to be at home as he cleaned the house and walked the dogs so when I got home it was lovely and relaxed, I'd have loved to have been confident that I didn't need him to be there to take care of my own basic needs.

Yes, that's what I did. I saved going for a shower for when DH was there to sit, but going to the toilet or with DD1 when I went to go sterilise pump parts, etc. I just left her in the cot.

My youngest Grandchild is 2 and my Daughter had wonderful care for the week she was in there. All of the staff were incredible.

Also, my Canadian friends all had their DHs in their rooms with them overnight afterwards. Calm births, choice of epidural if they wanted, privacy and properly staffed maternity units. etc. I’m still angry about my experience but very very grateful that we were ok

And most of that can't be pinned on understaffing.

Well, I'm black and my experience was atrocious, and the worst bit was how I was treated. I could go into it but not sure this is the correct thread to. In short I had eyes rolled at me when I asked for gas and air and asked to be examined as I was in agony with contractions, was told all women go through this and it'll be a good few hours yet, they refused to examine me and told me to get in the bath, prkbably to get me out of the way, cue DS's head being born with no help or supervision from midwives, on my own, and then total panic. It was horrific. I was nearly 10cm dilated.

I gave birth to both of my kids in Belgium. Epidural on demand, nice four night hospital stay afterwards where the nurses taught me how to breastfeed, wash baby, swaddle etc. They took baby to the nurses station in the night for cuddles when he was screaming to give me a few hours sleep. Checked and cleaned my stitches twice a day. Compared to friends who gave birth in the UK - no epidural available and one was kicked out of hospital two hours after giving birth at 4am and told to go to the GP when it opened for a new baby check.

Also not saying it's the midwives faults, I'm sure they're doing the best they can considering the circumstances, it's just rubbish that women are in these situations.

I’ve given birth in three European countries and also the Uk and broadly I’d agree. In the Uk i was visited by a consultant post birth to apologise and explain I had a case for a medical negligence after I was forgotten about and left alone in the operating theatre post birth , under anaesthetic.
In Europe the postnatal care was phenomenal, midwives who came to the house , made shopping lists for my partner to ensure I had optimum nutrition post birth, courses of physiotherapy, etc etc, really amazing.
The downside of course being that I paid 495 euros a month for health insurance as a self employed person, which is pricey but you do get your money’s worth.

I think it's about choice isn't it? Four nights in hospital would not be something I would view as a positive, I wanted to get home ASAP so was out after the minimum 24 hours post-section both times. But for those who aren't comfortable being discharged or need/want extra support, there should be mechanisms in place to accommodate those.

I don't think that's disguised cost cutting, it's just convenient that the two coincide. Many midwives genuinely subscribe to those attitudes. Some of it is just defending their turf, because they're not the ones who do c sections or provide epidurals.

YANBU

It's absolutely dire here in London, especially on the post natal wards

I will say that I'm in Scotland and my best friend in England had a baby between the two of mine and her experience was dramatically different from mine. She didn't even get midwife visits at home; she had to take her baby into the surgery, which blew my mind a bit. I had loads of home visits after both babies. And a lot of stuff about her antenatal and postnatal care seemed a lot worse than mine. Not suggesting Scotland is necessarily superior but perhaps it's a bit of a postcode lottery in terms of trusts/health boards.