To be upset that I was not told I was breast fed by my aunt?

[Evieanne]

So in my family’s religion and culture, breast feeding a baby who isn’t yours still forms kinship and re establishes part of who you cannot marry and who you’re allowed alone with from the opposite sex even within family and who can help marry you off.

In my case, as a baby I was Breast fed by my dad’s sister and I became my aunt’s milk daughter and I am the milk sibling to all of her aunt’s children - so my cousins from my aunty, through me being breast fed, became immediate family to me and are just like my biological siblings. so her male children can no longer marry me and can be alone with me and can be my guardian when I marry as they are considered my brothers.

So it is a huge thing in my family’s religion.

It took my parents a while to conceive, and they used a clinic to finally have me. There were concerns as to whether I was biologically both of my parent’s daughter, but they loved me anyway and said they didn’t want to know. My mum breast fed me a couple times just in case I wasn’t biologically hers and kept me bottle fed after that, so I know I am the mahram of her brothers and her dad. My aunt breast fed me when my parents took me to Pakistan as a baby to make sure there was no way I wasn’t blood family to my aunties and uncles on my dad’s side because my parents are related and there was no cheating, they were wanting to protect family ties. I don’t know why they just didn’t do a dna test.

But they kept this from me and I found out because my mum and my aunt had an argument about it and I was told by my mum I couldn’t be alone with any of cousins from my dad’s side unless female and I asked what about the cousins from this aunt who breast fed me, they’re my brothers ffs!!

The IVF story doesn't make much sense, unless your mum did IVF in Pakistan. Even then, I doubt that a clinic would transfer two embryos using sperm from two different men (if that's what happened).

I don't want to upset you, but could you have been adopted? Maybe an inter-family adoption? Do you have a copy of your birth certificate?

This is a very valid point, if the OPs parents were so desperate that they were simultaneously implanting embryos from a donor as well as from her mother as they said, then who knows what lengths they went to to conceive children? If the DNA tests came back as same father different mothers then the OP wouldn’t know If this was because the embryos from two different donors implanted, or whether it was one from the mother and one from a donor implanted. She would be none the wiser either way and would have opened up a whole new discussion. And it might not have been the mothers eggs that were reluctant to implant at all , the story of the two embryos was possibly to disguise the fact that it wasn’t the fathers sperm that was used.

OP I think you need to put the DNA testing firmly on the back burner while you try to sort out the other issues in your family dynamics.

I think by 'more to do with it' they mean is it possible your parents didn't use your aunts egg and or your uncles sperm for to create the second embryo? That might explain why your mother didn't want you to know you are your aunts milk daughter - because there's a possibility she's your bio mum.

You need to be having a Frank and assertive conversation with your parents regarding why you think , based on what you’ve been told, that even your mum is not your genetic mother. You must have reasons to suspect these aside form just looking different , if it’s just looking different then you really don’t understand genetics as you are outcome of a gene pool going back through history and odd genes pop out at every generation.

ask to see your birth certificate first.
then and only then ask if they’d do a genetic test
if they won’t, do not do it in secret , express your consnerns and your right to know agian but then you’ll have to leave it.
do NOT ask your sister until she is a legal adult and even then I’d leave it until she’s in early twenties- to find out that you have a different mother or father can be overwhelming emotionally for both of you and you need maturity to cope with this if your parents aren’t cooperating. You could quite literally break your family up

ask yourself this- why do I think I’m not related? Why is this important to me to know ? If it’s coming from a place of not being happy in your family, frankly you’re coming at it wrong. It’s very unlikely finding any north parents is going to make you “happy ever after”. You need find a way to resolve the issues in your existing family first

And as for all the “brother” milarky….its very difficult for westerners to take that seriously. Being a brother by genetics or by way of breastfeeding will NOT protect you from sexual harassment or assault sadly. There are way too many cases of incestual assaults by brothers, cousins or other family members to protect girls and women from this. It is merely a way of getting a bigger group of male relatives to exert control and coercion over their women. Frankly if these men and boys go along with this, I’d be seriously questioning exactly how safe I was alone with them 🤦‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️

I think this too

I think you're making it into a way bigger deal than it needs to be. And I have close Pakistani friends, so I understand Pakistani culture.

So you won't be able to marry some of your male cousin's. So what? Who cares? Your male cousin's are only 5-6 men. There are millions of men out there.

Grow up. You're being a drama queen

It’s more complex than that.

@Evieanne , if two embryos with different genetic backgrounds were implanted, I don't think there's any way that your parents will know which one of those two were lost and which became you. They won't know themselves about whose genetic child you are, and maybe they don't want to know. I think that's what you're saying?

I agree with another poster upthread, is it possible that you're actually your aunt's genetic child?

Regarding DNA testing, testing with another person who you believe to be a close member of your family is the only way to know for sure whether you are related. How much do you know about genetic inheritance? If you tested against one of your parents and it showed a match, that wouldn't tell you anything about the other parent. If you tested against your sister, that should show if you are full sisters, halfsisters or perhaps more distantly related (genetic cousins maybe). But that's only if your sister is actually your parent's daughter - if they had to go to such lengths to conceive you, did they manage to conceive easily after that or is there a chance that your sister is in the same boat as you?

If you want to test, you could buy test from various websites; Ancestry.com is probably the best-used in the UK. Don't pay more than £59 per person (they often reduce prices around bank holidays!!) You do need to be at least 18 years old to use this, so you would have to wait a little for your sister to turn 18. That's not necessarily a bad thing as it gives you more time to discuss and consider. But tests such as this are not legally recognised, and if you wanted a legally recognised test you'd have to use something like Cellmark.co.uk, which is a lot more expensive.

But think hard and talk about it thoroughly with whoever agrees to do a test with you. Once you have the information, you can't "unknow" it, so you need to map out every possible scenario in your head and think about how you would feel about it.

Family is complicated, isn't it, and it sounds as though in your culture there are extra societally added complications with who is considered "family" and what your culture then allows.

OP is not upset that she can't marry her cousins!!

She's upset that her mum was lying to her and effectively telling her that she could marry these cousins when OP already knew that culturally that was forbidden because of the breast feeding.

OPs mum did not know that OP already knew about the aunt breastfeeding her, and the mum was trying to keep it a secret from OP. OP does not understand why.

Why would you want to marry your first cousins ? That’s weird and illegal in many cultures and countries

If you see my previous replies I have tried asking them questions and they’re being cagey about it so it’s making me suspicious. If it was just breast feeding it wouldn’t have been a big deal, but it’s the reason why they breast fed me to my aunt which was because of the whole ivf thing that they’re not even fully explaining. They think it doesn’t matter now because they did what they could to have a child and they did it the right way. And knowing my parentage matters to me because if I’m not it’s a way I can detach from the trauma and I’ll think oh well at least I’m not her blood child maybe that’s why this happened or I’m not his blood child maybe that’s why he was more distant with me

Thank you this is exactly what I’m getting at and this is what’s upsetting me given the context of it all

Wow. Why do people still live like this?? This is why I'm glad I have absolutely nothing at all to do with religion. It's ridiculous!
Can't be alone with certain people?! What a way to live!
Brainwashing trip trap at its finest.
Honestly, the world would be a much better place if all religion was extinguished.

@JoanOfAllTrades it isn’t the fact that cousins marry, it is the repeated marriage of close blood relatives over many, or even several, generations that can cause issues if there are recessive genetic indicators. Ashkenazi Jewish families for example are well aware of this , and will test for the gene that causes Tay Sachs. Cypriot friends made sure their children and their partners were tested and were aware of thalassaemia markers .

Another complication with DNA testing OP, is that if there is a lot of cousin marriage in your family history, then the results may show you to be a closer relative than you are.

For instance if your DM and DF are related biologically, then you would show as related to both of them, even if they aren't both your parents.

Or if your aunt and uncle are your bio parents, that would mean you are related to your mother and father, and the dna test might be difficult to decipher what the actual biological relationship is. Especially for instance if your grandparents were cousins, etc.

Do you see what I mean?

This was an uncomfortable read 😬😬😬 From the being breastfed by someone other than your mother, to this being the reason why you can’t marry your first cousins and why you shouldn’t be alone with them?! I don’t… I have no idea what to say to this!

The amount of shared DNA between a child and a parent is such that it's pretty clear cut. Anything much less than virtually 50% of the DNA from one parent is going to ring alarm bells as to whether that parent has that degree of family relationship.

@Evieanne

You can go to any mosque or masjid and ask to speak to the Imam. Obviously keep away from known crackpot mosques such as Finsbury Park in London! Also, with regard to moving out, it’s better to try to get your parents to understand that you’re not moving out so you can boyfriends or shag anything with 2 legs! But that it’s normal to want some independence!

I get it beti, I have children and I was young once myself! I didn’t have an arranged marriage and I didn’t marry a Muslim man either. I had lots of offers of marriage within our community but I fell madly in love with my husband! Still am, but don’t tell him 🫢

Have you seen your birth certificate? I suspect that might answer a few questions for you.

you said you have a sister. How old were you when she was born? Any other siblings? Were they IVF too?

I’ve heard about milk siblings and understand how hard it would be to discover that men you thought weren’t immediate family actually are.

>*all children left their tribe at the age of seven to be raised in other tribes, not just in these islands but often on mainland Europe as well.

This sounds so unlikely, plus, it doesn't even make sense.

Yes, it was not unusual in many cultures for a sort of hostage exchange to take place for the children of ruling classes to take place. E.g. Little prince Alric of The Celts and Little Prince Benjamin of Judea fostered in Rome, and grow up Roman, so that when they are now rulers of the Celts Judeans, they think twice about waging war on Rome. Agreed.

But what you said: "all children left their tribe at the age of seven to be raised in other tribes, not just in these islands but often on mainland Europe as well."

• that makes no sense.

Village AB: children Ann, Allan - children of the Adams & children Bella, Bob, children of the Binns.

Village XY: children Xander & Xanthe Xins, Yuri and Yana Yip.

At age 7, Ann and Allan go and live with the Xins, Bella and Bob go and live with the Yips in XY village.

And. Yuri and Xanthe live with the Adams, and Xander and Yana live with the Binns in AB village.

So what will end up happening is it is MORE likely you marry your sibling, having been split up from birth. Who is keeping track of siblings from different villages?

Plus if ALL the children are swapped, you are an AB village child, living in XY village with OTHER AB village children.

Plus, mothers DO NOT easily give up their children.

More likely is every few years there were big gatherings, people from different settlements mixed, widened the gene pool that way.

Yeah I see what you mean. My mum and dad are first cousins once removed. My nana and my dad are first cousins, so My nana’s mum and my granddad (dad’s dad) are brother and sister. And my mum’s dad’s mum is also the sister of my grandad and my other great grandmother. So it’s quite close if you will.

Theyre your milk brothers? Are you Muslim? I haven't read the full thread!!!!

Hmm. I’m not sure DNA testing with your sister would give you a definitive answer OP. Firstly because your parents may have needed IVF and possible donor sperm or egg to have your sister too. And secondly because, if you parents are first cousins, and possibly your grandparents are first cousins, then I don’t know whether the test would be able to say definitively if you were full sisters, half sisters or cousins. It might end up showing an ambiguous percent of shared DNA.

Oh OP that sounds really tough. You say that you want to wait until the DNA test to move out, and if you're not related by blood you won't feel bad. I think you're putting the importance in the wrong place. Your mum beat you, you have been lied to and you feel trapped where you are. Even if you are blood related, that is no way to live. You are a 21 year old woman living in the UK. Go and move out with your friend!! You can continue being part of your culture and religion, depending on where you live you'll find a whole community of second generation British Pakistani living their lives in their own way.

Once you move out you'll have the space to think clearly about this. Do you work?

This is batshit. You can be alone with whoever you want. You can date and marry whoever you want (but for the love of god don’t get into an incest relationship!!) You do not need to follow nor obey any magic man in the sky. No one but you dictates your life.