Page 10 | To think people who want "safe routes to migration" into the UK are hopelessly naive

ForestGoblin · 2023-08-14T06:25:42+00:00

We could spend every penny of public money on bringing refugees to the UK in comfy and safe boats and planes. We could make it mandatory for every home to provide accommodation and food. We could ban healthcare for anyone except refugees. And there would still be thousands and thousands of boat crossings every year and millions more people languishing in bad situations and trying to figure out how to get here or elsewhere in northern Europe. It's a crap situation. Life is bad. I feel dreadful for them. But "safe routes" is a load of glib nonsense that can't work.

CalistoNoSolo · 14/08/2023 12:17

luckylavender · 14/08/2023 11:03

Amazes me that we're the 5th richest country in the world & our government & the right wing media has managed to hoodwink the population that all our problems are the fault of migrants. Not underfunding, not creaming off money to rich Tory donors but migrants. And so many people lap it up.

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Where did I blame the uk's problems on migrants? You have deliberately misunderstood my point. But I'll spell it out for you - the UK is broken because of the tories, we can't even look after our own citizens. That's not anti immigration, that's just counting.

ColdMeg · 14/08/2023 12:21

godlikeAI · 14/08/2023 09:55

The west has truly screwed over the world, in sucking wealth towards itself. People follow the money and in my view, we should be welcoming people who endure gruelling journeys with open arms - here are people who truly want to make something of themselves. Help them with safe routes (and check them), employ them, win win.

So did the Ottoman Empire. And, at present, so is China. The Gulf has been sucking in wealth for the last 100 years too.

The difference between us and China and the Gulf is immigration policy, which is why China is buying up all houses across London and the Gulf owns our football clubs and most prestigious hotels.

Castall · 14/08/2023 12:35

@Zebedee999

oh lots of experience actually.
so no need for you to attempt to down play or bully someone that does not agree with you.

I agree there was more competition but the miss managed near zero interest rates and effectively free money caused a lot of that.

legal frameworks of zero contracts, the anti union laws and removal of employment rights did an awful lot more as you didn't see the same low wages in other EU countries that have and has those protections.

the inflation situation in the uk leading to wage rises is due to Brexit, and lack of strong labour laws.

enchantedsquirrelwood · 14/08/2023 12:47

If we had safe routes to migration, people could apply properly and we could pick and choose the people we wanted with the skills we wanted.

We are constantly told that many people who want to come here speak English and that's why they choose the UK when they are already eg in France. That therefore implies that they do have skills we might want.

Those who are already here should be given English lessons and we should find out what their skills are, and get them in paid work - rather than effectively locking them up in hotels and on barges. What use is that? They are here, get them to contribute!

There would then be more reason to turn people down who came illegally because there would be no good reason for them not eg to go to the British embassy in Paris and ask for asylum or put in an application to come here to do a specific type of job.

I also don't want young males coming here from countries who think women are the playthings of men. We have enough homegrown misogynists - we don't need more to add to them. We should eg be taking women from Afghanistan.

Jamtartforme · 14/08/2023 12:49

If we had safe routes to migration, people could apply properly and we could pick and choose the people we wanted with the skills we wanted.

It wouldn’t make any difference, if they didn’t win via the safe route, they’d get in a boat. Same result.

Castall · 14/08/2023 12:54

@Jamtartforme

we have never tried and you are wrong
you could then deport with out as many legal issues.

Jamtartforme · 14/08/2023 12:55

Castall · 14/08/2023 12:54

@Jamtartforme

we have never tried and you are wrong
you could then deport with out as many legal issues.

Well you couldn’t because the asylum laws are separate to the general immigration ones.

Alexandra2001 · 14/08/2023 13:01

CloudyMcCloud · 14/08/2023 11:10

Disagree based on what experience? It’s a fact that the accommodation doesn’t necessarily need to hold many, Nauru doesn’t.

If you listen to that call and still think he’s wrong well there’s no point continuing 🤷‍♂️

Experience counts for less than opinion so I’ll leave you to it.

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You re not really getting it are you?

Australia used several islands states, with huge capacity.... and as i said, still 12000 in PNG... 12 thousand.... tell me again how many Rwanda is will to take and has built facilities for?

1000... thats it... so i'll ask you again.... when Rwanda is full (after 24 to 48hrs) what deterrent will there be for migrants? none.

Get capacity up and yes, i can see there is a deterrent value.

Alexandra2001 · 14/08/2023 13:04

Castall · 14/08/2023 12:54

@Jamtartforme

we have never tried and you are wrong
you could then deport with out as many legal issues.

Deport to where?

Rwanda can take 1000, thats it, no other countries are lined up.

eveoha · 14/08/2023 13:13

Well I for one would like a ‘safe route’ to my family home in Kensington - sadly now a no go/war zone due to an influx of people who are apparently not aware of what was a traditional (v working class) way of life all over the UK 👍🏿☘️

FlakiestCornflakeInTheCerealBox · 14/08/2023 13:18

For the "the UK is a soft touch" brigade and "an island that can't support more", please read this link:

https://www.unhcr.org/refugee-statistics/

It might give you an understanding of how the UK compares to other countries in terms of refugees.

Some notable numbers from the link above:

Turkey hosts the largest number of refugees at 3.6 million followed by Iran.

76% of refugees are hosted in low and middle income countries (ie not the UK).

Do you still think this country does more than its fair share?

And yes, I would pay more taxes to help the poorest and most desperate people wherever they are from.

UNHCR - Refugee Statistics

UNHCR's Refugee Statistics is a database containing information about forcibly displaced populations, spanning across almost 70 years of statistical activities. It covers displaced populations such as refugees, asylum-seekers and internally displaced p...

https://www.unhcr.org/refugee-statistics

Zebedee999 · 14/08/2023 13:18

Castall · 14/08/2023 12:35

@Zebedee999

oh lots of experience actually.
so no need for you to attempt to down play or bully someone that does not agree with you.

I agree there was more competition but the miss managed near zero interest rates and effectively free money caused a lot of that.

legal frameworks of zero contracts, the anti union laws and removal of employment rights did an awful lot more as you didn't see the same low wages in other EU countries that have and has those protections.

the inflation situation in the uk leading to wage rises is due to Brexit, and lack of strong labour laws.

What is this lots of experience you talk about then?
I employed literally hundreds and saw wages drop from low £30k's to low £20k's over a 20 year period due to competition from EU free movement and immigration. Nothing at all to do with what you mention. I had literally hundreds of CVs from Poland, Portugal, Italy, Spain etc offering to do jobs at 60% what the going rate was before EU free movement took off and immigration became effectively unlimited.
This completely screwed already low paid workers and was hardly surprising those same screwed workers voted for Brexit. I'm simply quoting what I saw with my own eyes in my own companies.
Give examples of where you paid your workers MORE as a result of EU free movement and increased immigration; I really cannot imagine that you can.
Remainers never gave a stuff about UK workers wages, it was all about keeping their right to live in France or have a cheap au pair or other cheap labour. I can see all sides but I'll be intrigued where you can disprove my point thet EU free movement and increased immigration doesn't drive down wages for the lowest paid ... because it DOES!

JamSandle · 14/08/2023 13:19

FlakiestCornflakeInTheCerealBox · 14/08/2023 13:18

For the "the UK is a soft touch" brigade and "an island that can't support more", please read this link:

https://www.unhcr.org/refugee-statistics/

It might give you an understanding of how the UK compares to other countries in terms of refugees.

Some notable numbers from the link above:

Turkey hosts the largest number of refugees at 3.6 million followed by Iran.

76% of refugees are hosted in low and middle income countries (ie not the UK).

Do you still think this country does more than its fair share?

And yes, I would pay more taxes to help the poorest and most desperate people wherever they are from.

Turkey also has a rising anti-refugee movement at the moment.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 14/08/2023 13:20

countrygirl99 · 14/08/2023 07:50

@Wsmi how many asylumseekers do you think it's fair for France/Greece/Italy to accept if we only take the few for whom we have set up safe routes?

The French and the Greeks and the Italians can do as they please. They are sovereign states ( although less so than the UK).

I think you are probably not aware of the increasingly hostile attitude towards the migrant influx in these countries, though.

LakieLady · 14/08/2023 13:31

luckylavender · 14/08/2023 11:03

Amazes me that we're the 5th richest country in the world & our government & the right wing media has managed to hoodwink the population that all our problems are the fault of migrants. Not underfunding, not creaming off money to rich Tory donors but migrants. And so many people lap it up.

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Government's love to deflect the blame for their cock ups on a scapegoat, especially one that a significant section of the population doesn't give a shit about and is happy to "other".

It's almost enough to give me a "Godwin" moment.

Jamtartforme · 14/08/2023 13:32

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 14/08/2023 13:20

The French and the Greeks and the Italians can do as they please. They are sovereign states ( although less so than the UK).

I think you are probably not aware of the increasingly hostile attitude towards the migrant influx in these countries, though.

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I had a Spanish friend over yesterday who said the Spanish public opinion of boat migrants is much the same as here.

CloudyMcCloud · 14/08/2023 13:38

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 14/08/2023 13:20

The French and the Greeks and the Italians can do as they please. They are sovereign states ( although less so than the UK).

I think you are probably not aware of the increasingly hostile attitude towards the migrant influx in these countries, though.

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Agree. It’s not going to be different. People will push back no matter where or which gov

Fieldofbrokenpromises · 14/08/2023 13:46

DanceWithTheBigBoysAgain · 14/08/2023 08:45

Looking at the list of countries where most of the small boat arrivals come from, there's an obvious split between countries where people might have a legitimate wish for asylum (the majority), and the countries where the motives are going to be more questionable (basically Albanian nationals, though mostly previously resident in other countries).

You need a two pronged approach: provide a safe route to take our fair share of asylum seekers who are in genuine need, and also introduce identity cards to make the UK a less attractive location for people who are looking to work in the black economy. This would have other side benefits - eg the Windrush scandal could never have happened if we had a straightforward ID card system, and we wouldn't have as many children slipping through the cracks. Everywhere else in Europe manages to have ID cards without slipping down a slippery fascist slope (or if they do slip down a fascist slope it's not the ID cards that are taking them there).

This stuff about ID cards being a magic solution is utter rubbish - also the idea that it would have prevented Windrush is nonsense, if anything it would have made it even worse.

Teentaxidriver · 14/08/2023 13:55

Ah Collaborate - showing your IQ there with accusations of racism. Maybe pop back to the mirror so that you can continue virtue signalling, and let the grown ups worry about this issue.

Teentaxidriver · 14/08/2023 13:57

All of the Remainers I know, had second homes in France and were massively peeved.

Castall · 14/08/2023 14:00

@Jamtartforme

you are wrong because currently there are no safe routes

Castall · 14/08/2023 14:03

@Teentaxidriver

umm you are wolf and as for being grown up, your remainders comment speaks volumes for where you appear to want to be seen on that spectrum.

was that virtually signalled enough?

and yea there is a lot of hard sad motives at play here I fear.

Jamtartforme · 14/08/2023 14:04

Castall · 14/08/2023 14:00

@Jamtartforme

you are wrong because currently there are no safe routes

Wrong about what?

Iamclearlyamug · 14/08/2023 14:05

Teentaxidriver · 14/08/2023 13:55

Ah Collaborate - showing your IQ there with accusations of racism. Maybe pop back to the mirror so that you can continue virtue signalling, and let the grown ups worry about this issue.

Collaborate is actually very intelligent, a solicitor I believe, given the amount of advice given on the legal boards - however I was somewhat surprised at her accusations of racism.

Anyway, my issue with the fact we don't (or won't) process from overseas is the fact that once these refugees/migrants GET here on the boats, we can't seem to deport them no matter what.

If their asylum request was rejected, where do we deport to? Especially since so many of these young men have "lost their documents". If they have no ID and no documents, how do we know where to deport them TO?

These men are not stupid, they know we can't deport them if we don't know who they are or where they're from, which is why their documents get "lost/stolen" - how do we get around this?

SueVineer · 14/08/2023 14:07

cheezncrackers · 14/08/2023 08:00

YANBU and you're right that however many 'safe routes' are provided, the desire of people from poor countries to seek a better life far outstrips the ability of rich countries to accommodate them, even if there was the political will to do so.

The simple and blunt fact is that most of the people who come here are not desirable migrants from the UK's (or any other rich nation's) POV. They're ill-educated, they don't have skills that we have shortages of, their English is generally poor, if they speak it at all, and the financial support they require on arrival in terms of education, healthcare, housing, etc far outstrips any contribution they'll make to the country's coffers through tax. We simply don't need tens of thousands of young male migrants, besides which, the vast majority are NOT the most needy or deserving refugees. On the contrary, they are the strongest and healthiest members of their families, yet 90% of migrants who arrive via illegal routes are young men.

This. I’ve done aid work and generally the most vulnerable are those left behind, not those with thousands to pay people smugglers.