To think it's embarrassing how English has one of the easiest grammar systems, and yet so many people don't know the basic rules...

[Skyeboat]

I'm a linguist, and the languages I studied have very complex grammar rules compared to English. So much so that native speakers have to memorise verb tables, moods, cases etc. at primary school level, and even those who didn't study to a high level know the basic rules.
English is one of the simplest languages, and yet the amount of native English speakers I see making really obvious mistakes is just embarrassing.
Is the problem that we just don't teach grammar and syntax in school?
For example, I saw a FB post today selling "Teddy's" (as opposed to teddies). That's actually the most common mistake I see - people, even businesses, not knowing how to use apostrophes and form plurals. I'd understand if it was a complicated rule that required memorisation with a lot of exceptions, but it's soo basic. It takes about 10 minutes to learn then you're all set.
I went to a pretty average state school, and I remember they did teach us these things, but we weren't rigorously tested on them or required to repeat them regularly. So I do believe the problem is with a lack of focus on basic English from a young age.
Am I being unreasonable or is this really embarrassing that we have such a poor grasp of our own mother tongue?

@macrowave - you’re not a layperson if you are analysing someone’s language proficiency in accordance with professionally established and agreed levels. And your use of “Respectfully,” which genuinely appeared to be meant respectfully, made me assume you were not a native speaker.

I agree with you 100%, I’m a foreigner with dyslexia and know not to make basic mistakes.

my daughter got invited to “brithday” party by english people, I thought it was shocking they had not made an effort to check the spelling for the invites.

At school a teacher once pointed out some errors I had made and I told them I had dyslexia, he said it’s not an excuse. I’ve not used it as an excuse since then, just check my text thoroughly. I use google if I’m not sure.

I beg to differ. I reckon loads of people think it means exactly that.

I'm not a layperson, no - but, by definition, the majority of people are. As I mentioned, a certain CEFR level is a common requirement for university entrance or graduation in many countries; it's also a frequent requirement for visas, many jobs, etc. It's a very commonly used system, despite the fact that you personally haven't heard of it.

@macrowave - we are talking about English people here, though, are we not? The nation which famously does not make learning a foreign language compulsory beyond the age of about 12 or 13.

Are we? As I said in a previous comment, it depends on how wide you cast your net. I don't tend to think of English people as being the default because, well, I'm not one. 😉

I didn't realise that languages weren't even compulsory in England! They were when I lived there, although that was many years ago in the dim and distant past. That's a real shame, and I hope it changes in the future.

Obvious typo?

What I said was they don’t stick Italian plurals on the end of English words.

“I like sitcoms” Italians would use “le sitcom” not “le sitcome”.

Ho scaricato
Never heard of downloadare being a verb

No it doesn’t, that’s just what some people think it means.

En suite is used in English in same way as it is in French - you could say “en suite rooms” - it doesn’t mean rooms with bathrooms it means rooms that follow on from each other.

@macrowave - surely you don’t think the opening post was referring to non-native speakers, though? It was about mistakes commonly made by native English speakers. Learning a foreign language to at least the age of 16 ceased to be compulsory in England in 2004, unfortunately.

I know what it is because it's my job.
I could choose 10 random people off the street and i can guarantee that the vast majority will have no clue what it is. Why would they? @macrowave they honestly wouldn't

Many schools do insist you take a language up to GCSE level. All three of our local comprehensives do.

First four results from Googling "dictionary: ensuite". Three refer only to bathrooms. The fourth doesn't refer to a bathroom in its definitions but does in all of its examples. An en suite is a bathroom in the same suite as a bedroom when speaking English. Never heard it used in any other context.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/en-suite

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/en-suite

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/en-suite

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/en%20suite

The phrase has been imported from French (?) but its meaning isn't the literal translation, that's how language works.

Many schools don’t insist. Many schools only offer one MFL.

There's a big difference between proper academic linguists - who understand that language is fluid, always evolving and may deviate from the institutionally established norms - and prescriptive grammarians who think everyone should just write and sound like a grammar book.

Most people on this thread are the latter.

I’m with @JenniferBarkley on the en-suite thing. In English it can be used as in French, but the commonly understood meaning is an adjective to describe a bathroom attached to a bedroom or a bedroom attached to a bathroom. Common usage now also includes en suite as a noun by itself (presumably a contraction of en suite bathroom or en suite bedroom) to describe such a bathroom.

There are loan words like that in lots of languages. I know some Japanese and some German. Japanese uses the German loanword アルバイト/Arubaito/Arbeit (work) to specifically refer to part-time or casual jobs, where in German it refers to work in general. No idea why the German word for work came to be used in that way there, but once a loan word enters another language it’s no longer part of the original language and gets integrated into the language that’s borrowed it.

There are lots of examples of Japanese loanwoards to English that mean something different here. E.g. Sake means alcohol in general and what we call sake here is actually called nihonshu. Kombucha is not the fizzy fermented stuff that we buy here but a tea made of kelp and the fizzy stuff is called kōcha kinoko. I won’t get into the words hentai or bukkake for now. 😂😂

Nobody know's how too use apostrophe's where I live. Every business and every Facebook poster love's to use them like this.

I'm starting to think that adding apostrophes for plurals is a form of written dialect here. It drives me up the wall. It's not that hard. Yes, exceptions can be made for those that suffer from dyslexia etc, but on the whole I think people are becoming lazy.

What this thread demonstrates to me is that there are far more stylistic preferences than there are actual rules. Imvho, it is ridiculous and totally un-English to insist that if you have acquired a word or phrase from another language, you must follow the rules of that language when pluralising the word. English wouldn’t exist in its current form if the English always took such a silly approach. English has always absorbed, bastardised, then taken over and altered the meaning of words from other languages. The rules did not come first - they are attempts at codifying an ever-changing tapestry, pickling a language in aspic, freezing a running stream (however you like to envisage it). Rules are only rules for so long as they are useful.

No. When I asked "Do you think Italians use English borrowings in full accordance with English grammar?" You responded by saying "Yes is the short answer."

But it clearly isn't the 'short answer'. Italians use English borrowings without regard to English grammar all the time.

Because grammar usage is only tested in year 6 and ignored by secondary school teachers?

Gotta love online dictionaries, only Merriam Webster gets it right.

My OED defines it correctly as “(of a bathroom) immediately adjoining a bedroom”.

It’s not that it’s not the literal translation it’s that the English thought it meant something it didn’t. It used to be “en suite bathroom”, then bathroom was dropped, then people thought it meant bathroom.

I can’t think of another French import that doesn’t retain its meaning - chic, savoir faire, sang froid, au revoir, RSVP, creme de la creme, bon appetit, aperitif, avant garde, bureau, film noir, faux pas, rendezvous, c’est la vie, a la carte, carte blanche, cafe, cafe au lait, brunette, connoisseur, deja vu, fiance, en route etc.

I said: “Yes is the short answer. I’ve never heard an italian put i, o or e on the end of a word borrowed from English. They just use the word as is.”

We were referring to putting an S on panini.

That happens to be something Italians don’t do. Not saying that Italians who don’t speak English use English borrowings according to English grammar - how could they? But you could have figured that out for yourself.

@Mirabai I have never come across en suite being used to describe any bathroom not connected to a bedroom. I don’t think there is the confusion that you think there is.

En suite could apply to any adjoining room, a study or dressing room for example. I don’t think there’s any confusion, I just think a lot of English think en suite is French for bathroom.

No one thinks en suite means bathroom. Seriously, no one. An en suite bathroom is a bathroom attached to a bedroom (all in one suite). It has become the default use of the term and so the bathroom bit is removed and it is just referred to as an en suite.

If the term is used in any other sense that will be made clear - and it doesn't often happen as it will likely cause confusion.

Even your OED definition specifies a bathroom and a bedroom, neither of which as necessary when translated directly from French. A kitchen/living/dining room is a suite of rooms but it's never used in that sense because that's not what the term has evolved to mean.