To think it's embarrassing how English has one of the easiest grammar systems, and yet so many people don't know the basic rules...

[Skyeboat]

I'm a linguist, and the languages I studied have very complex grammar rules compared to English. So much so that native speakers have to memorise verb tables, moods, cases etc. at primary school level, and even those who didn't study to a high level know the basic rules.
English is one of the simplest languages, and yet the amount of native English speakers I see making really obvious mistakes is just embarrassing.
Is the problem that we just don't teach grammar and syntax in school?
For example, I saw a FB post today selling "Teddy's" (as opposed to teddies). That's actually the most common mistake I see - people, even businesses, not knowing how to use apostrophes and form plurals. I'd understand if it was a complicated rule that required memorisation with a lot of exceptions, but it's soo basic. It takes about 10 minutes to learn then you're all set.
I went to a pretty average state school, and I remember they did teach us these things, but we weren't rigorously tested on them or required to repeat them regularly. So I do believe the problem is with a lack of focus on basic English from a young age.
Am I being unreasonable or is this really embarrassing that we have such a poor grasp of our own mother tongue?

There are plenty.

To give just one. An Italian might say 'ho downloadato questo file', thus imposing Italian grammatical structure onto an English word. If we were to follow the previous poster's logic, they should be saying 'ho downloaded questo file'. But of course they don't.

They certainly don’t! My favourites are ‘fashion‘, used by Italians as an adjective to mean ‘fashionable’, ‘un toast’ to mean a toastie, and most alarmingly ‘uno shooting’ to mean a photoshoot.

I believe the proper use of an apostrophe within a contraction constitutes spelling, not punctuation. Opinions?

I always liked 'il slip' to refer to underpants!

Maybe when I see it with an apostrophe, it's a step too far lol

I hope the people who are cross about panini feel the same about the plural Italian loan words broccoli and scampi, and fastidiously refer to the broccolo that they have steamed for supper.

😂

”Would Sir like another scampo in his basket?”

I cut mine up
I have more than one 🤣

I wonder if they ask the Deliveroo guy to bring them two pizze?

Knowledge is knowing the correct pronunciation of chorizo and Gouda, that panini is plural and typhoon should really be typhoo. Wisdom is knowing that using that knowledge in conversation makes you sound like a bellend. 😂😂

By proficient, I, as a layperson, mean can get by in spoken professional and social situations, but it’s obvious it’s not your first language - maybe it still sounds a bit like you are translating from another language in your choice of words and word order, for example, rather than thinking in the language you are using; or you come across as unusually direct, bordering on rude, because you don’t fully understand the subtleties of different ways of expressing the same thoughts to give different impressions; or your choice of language, written and spoken, is unusually formal; or you occasionally misinterpret or misuse commonly used expressions (in a way that doesn’t fit with your otherwise varied vocabulary); or even that you come across as unusually careful in the way you express yourself, maybe because you still have to think carefully about how to express yourself before you start your sentences in order to avoid sounding like the first example I gave. My (layperson’s) definition of genuinely fluent would be someone you just wouldn’t realise wasn’t a native speaker (with possible rare exceptions that are surprising to the listener, which would be inevitable, as I am sure everyone is more fluent in one of their languages than the others they speak, due to spending more of their time using it and being surrounded by people using it). C2 is meaningless to me - that’s nothing to do with a layperson’s understanding of fluency.

I have friends whose first language is not English but who genuinely sound fluent to me, and friends who are very proficient, as I see it. I also have stilted, slow conversations with some friends who can get by in English, because I know what they mean, sometimes after a few attempts.

https://grammarist.com/grammar/grammar-vs-punctuation/

Does Spelling Count as Grammar? Spelling errors do not count as grammar errors because it does not refer to the arrangement of words. Instead, it’s the correct arrangement of the letters to form a word. Spelling is also not part of grammar because it only focuses on written language and not speech.

I pronounce chorizo fairly close to the Latin American Spanish pronunciation (the "z" is an "s" sound, not "th") as most people do where I live in the US. Gouda is an entirely different matter, though. I'd probably get a response along the lines of "well, howda to you, too."

You must be one of those mistaken Oxford comma deniers.

Ah but the actual example was putting an S on panini which is already plural. I can’t think of an English word used in Italian to which an Italian plural ending is added.

Words used their original meaning and context is not quite the same thing.

Many in the U.K. say “en suite” thinking it means bathroom, which it does not.

I generally don't say anything for that reason lol.

That's interesting - your definition of proficient is completely different from how it's generally used. I don't think it's necessarily very helpful to use standards like "someone you just wouldn’t realise wasn’t a native speaker" because some degree of L1 phonemic interference is almost inevitable for the vast majority of language learners.

I disagree that C2 is meaningless to a layperson. The Common European Framework of Reference for Languages (which, despite the name, is used globally) is pretty well understood by even casual language learners; many universities have a B1 or B2 in a second language as a requirement for entry or graduation, for example.

Experience has taught me to be skeptical of people who put "fluent" on their CV, rather than a CEFR level.

The most tedious threads on MN are related to grammar.

If you have time to go through everyone's grammar with a fine toothed comb, you are not working hard enough in your day job and don't have enough responsibility or hobbies.

It wasn't an Oxford comma.

It was X, and X.

Not X, X, and X - which is the Oxford comma.

You don't say "fish, and chips".

Never in my life have I heard an Italian say downloadato. They would use ‘scariato’ for that or ‘il download’.

In English an en suite is a bathroom, one included within a bedroom. I don't think anyone thinks it's a literal translation, it sounds exactly like "in suite". But its meaning is different to the literal translation.

@macrowave - 😂. Do you know what a layperson is? I’d lay money on the vast majority of people having no clue whatsoever what a C2 level in a language means.

Equally I've never heard 'scariato'. I have however heard 'scaricato' but 'downloadato' too.

But if you're familiar with Italian, I don't know how you could possibly say that Italians only use English borrowings in full accordance with English grammar, because they clearly don't. You've never heard things like 'un po di relax'? or 'gli hamburger'?

I suppose it depends on how wide you cast your net. The vast majority of English speakers are non-native. The average European speaks 2.32 languages. I can't remember the last time I spoke to someone who didn't have at least a vague idea of CEFR levels (either through their own studies or, in the case of older generations, their children). Then again, I'm not English. 🤷🏼‍♀️

YANBU
It is embarrassing low.