To wonder about other countries approaches to raising children

[Mamabear04]

I was approached in a supermarket by an elderly woman who I think just wanted a chat because she was lonely. I was with my baby and she proceeded to tell me about her son who lives in the Netherlands and how they let their kids stay up late, unlike British parents who can't wait to get their kids to bed. It got me to wondering about how other cultures raise their kids. I do put my children to bed early at 7pm, yes because I like to have the evenings to rest but also it means they gets a solid 11-12 hours sleep and wake for the working day at 7am. A friend who lives in France said that kids are seen and not heard there and have hardly any play parks (I was a bit shocked about the play parks tbh), she also said Israeli families consider their kids the biggest blessing from God and so let their kids do anything (in a nice way not an antisemitic way. They are a multicultural family). I also have a friend who said her cousin still sleeps in the same room as her parents at 9 years old and they live in UAE. I'm just so curious about how other cultures raise their kids and also how people see British families as well. I only ever hear that British families don't eat together and don't engage with their kids. Anyone from outwith the UK want to tell about how they raise their children? Do you really think of British families like this?

I lived and have family in a few countries . Spain Portugal , Cyprus Italy all put their kids to bed way past 10 pm often close to midnight . They have dinner around 8 or much later as a family and it’s common to see kids out in the evening with their parents . Children are welcomed in most places so you wouldn’t see anyone moaning about children in a restaurant or noise etc .

In countries where kids stay up late- when do they start school?

In DC school in Switzerland, school starts at 8.15am, and on some days high school starts at 7.25am. Staying up late would equal very exhausted children!

It’s odd, British parents seem to have very little tolerance for direct mistreatment of children (smacking, harsh punishment, but also things like telling your child they’re annoying you). But very high tolerance for indirect mistreatment - too much screen time and junk food mainly.

A child being allowed a few sips of wine at 10 would be very frowned upon, but a very overweight 10 year old would be nobody else’s business. Allowing a child to be playing out alone at 7 or 8 is a no-no, but cooping them up on screens all day is considered a ‘break’ for parents that people shouldn’t judge.

We seem to have a short term view of risk to our child, in that it’s unacceptable to do anything that may cause immediate harm, but it seems very acceptable to set children up in bad habits for life in order to make our parenting experience easier for us.

Don’t get me wrong, I am also guilty of being a bit anxious and not trusting DD as much as I should (mainly on play equipment, I’m the parent saying ‘isn’t that a bit high?’). But I also acknowledge I need to snap out of it and I’m working on that. Short term it may soothe me to know my kids are only on safe and unchallenging play equipment but is it in their interests in the long term? Probably not.

@Schoggimonster - Ds probably goes to bed later than most local kids. 8.30-9pm. Kindergarten and school starts around 7.30-45am here.
Hes always wide awake by 6am and happily goes to bed even later. The kinderarzt here recommends 8-10hr sleep depending on age. Ds is 3, so on a good day he gets 9.5hrs

Schools are all open here also. Just school on field, then play area, then road etc. no fences. I’m always surprised no one escapes or gets run over

@Jamtartforme you are absolutely right.

@Jamtartforme

that’s a very perceptive post.

This. I was a commuting parent so it was brilliant that our children were up late with us. We co-slept and also tried not to helicopter - children are safer if they can learn for themselves to some extent.

If you commuted did that mean you were up early though? How did your kids get enough sleep? I’m actually very down with the idea of keeping kids up later to involve them in the evening and a nice long dinner, the only thing that puts me off is we have to be up at 7am and my 4 year old needs about 11 hours of sleep. Her bedtime is 8pm.

I’ve enjoyed this thread. I think we are quite relaxed about things like summer bedtimes- if it’s a nice night then I don’t mind taking the kids to the beach after work and just getting chips on the way home for tea rather than stressing about an 8pm bedtime. I like them being out in the garden as much as they can be. I find we are quite materialistic here compared to some other cultures. Christmas gift piles can be huge. I also noticed that everything is made into a huge deal now- elaborate balloon displays and personalised T-shirts, gifts etc for nursery graduation. “When I wake up in the morning I will be starting school” jammies. It’s also went from Xmas eve boxes to Halloween and Easter baskets etc. I don’t know that those are much of a big deal elsewhere.

I would say the James Bulger murder was the turning point for parenting becoming more overprotective.

@Jamtartforme DH had a very early work start and I didn't so kids slept till almost 8 often - not quite that on school mornings! Also they were great afternoon nappers and just didn't sleep long hours at night - there was no chance of them going down at 7. From the off as babies they didn't sleep for hours on end unlike some kids of friends. They've all done very well academically and socially before anyone decides to tell me what a crap parent I was - and when they were up later than many kids they had to be polite and well behaved round others.

I wasn’t going to say you’re a crap parent at all. I was just intrigued how the whole FT working parent/late night thing happens, but if you had late starts and the kids were able to nap in the afternoon then that solves that one. I don’t have a late start and obviously kids don’t nap at school so not an option for many!

@Jamtartforme they didn't go to bed early early once they started and school and the naps stopped - I seem to remember insisting on 8 or 9 on school nights and they were fine.

I agree. When my children were young there were several high profile child murders, one of them in the street next to the children's school.
After that, you never saw a child without an adult close by.

Whilst a lot of these observations are not exactly untrue they don't say much about social class. Things will be very different in every country and poor people in x will have more in common with poor people in y than their own countrymen. Likewise affluent people.

I had my son in England but moved home a few years ago when he was mid-primary and would agree with this (though I left London when he was a baby, and was living in the midlands after that).

I'm not criticising 'English parenting' at all (to generalise for a moment -- obviously massive variables exist), only noting that it seems to generate far more angst than Irish parenting across the board.

I agree with a pp that some of this must be to do with perceptions of education and its relationship to class. DS was at an Ofsted-rated-'excellent' C of E village school in England (because it was the only school in the village), and there was huge competition for places. Some of his classmates travelled not-insignificant distances from the nearest city, and people were quite upfront about moving to the village to be in the catchment.

Here we just sent DS to the geographically closest school that had a place available mid-year, which was a city Educate Together (non-religious school with an inclusive, informal ethos, no uniform or appearance rules, teachers called by first names). Nearly all the primary age kids in our (mixed, near-city-centre) neighbourhood go there -- there are virtually no private primaries, and not many secondaries. Our architect and our cleaner's kids are both in the same class, and DS's class has both the kids of surgeons from the nearby hospital, and cleaners from the same hospital. I think everyone being more likely to just send their children to the school down the road (this, I suspect may be different in prosperous bits of Dublin), and the lack of Ofsted-type ratings, takes out a big chunk of angst out of parenting. I will be the first to say this school hasn't pushed DS academically, and I'm sure he could have had a more stringent education elsewhere, but it's not something I worry about, and I'm certainly not tutoring to 'make up for' it. Will probably choose a secondary based on proximity also.

UK living in Poland

Children are expected to be potty trained much earlier. Ideally by twoish and if they get to three there will be comments made. Our nursery/preschool was very insistent on this.

Children are roaming the village at young ages. It's common for a seven year old to be supervising a five year old at the playground.

Far less concern over social media/privacy. Our nursery just posts pictures on a public FB group. Same applies to parents picking up children etc.

Children and mothers are both looked after more in some ways (e.g. queue jumping, special exemptions made) and are also expected more than in the UK to be quiet and behave in public.

Children are dressed more warmly, always

Food is an odd mix of "they will eat adult food or go hungry" and "fuck it, they're having hotdogs again". Childrens' menus are always chicken or tomato soup / spag bol. A lot more expectation about food being natural and not too processed

From what I've seen so far, very little allowances made for SEND children

I don’t understand the sleeping thing either, my 3yr olds pattern is 8pm to 7am sleep roughly. She’d be dead on her feet with less, she actually slept 9 hours last night and has been a snotty hysterical mess all day. Kids need sleep, it impacts lots of areas of functioning. If put Dd to bed at 7pm she’d just wake up at 6am anyway.

This is such a neat thread. I'm in my late 30s and I was raised in America (German mum and American dad) and they were very child centric/health focused: extended breastfeeding, co-sleeping, talking things through rather than punishments, involving us in decisions making, super healthy organic food, no TV, talking to us about politics, lots of reading and outdoor play, exposure to the arts and cultures. Everyone we knew had a similar approach to parenting but I don't think it was typical of American parenting at the time.

UK but lived in France for more than ten years… would say the French focus is more on children fitting into their frame of life and how adults already perceive it, than you choosing to have children and creating a life surrounding and adapting to them. For example going out for dinner- it is expected they sit and engage in conversation at the table, not sit on devices, but everyday at school my children have a 3 course meal which sometimes includes none child friendly options (eg moules frites) with cheese course - it’s a huge part of the culture and so it is normal for them to sit at a table from very young…

The schooling is more strict but they do have SEN help (at least where we are) but the learning is extremely rigid in terms of repetition etc. They go to maternelle (reception) for 3 years and then on to school- they have every Wednesday off which can be a complete pain for childcare depending on your job!

They definitely take a more no nonsense approach, but in terms of sleep- maternity leave is very short so it might be more because the baby needs to sleep through, as opposed to just choosing it because you can’t be bothered to deal with a crying baby.

In fact most English parents i know have used cry it out in some form or another but it might be because definitions differ.

Safeguarding is an interesting point of difference. I work in a French school, DH teaches in a school, and we’ve got two children currently 12 and 15 in the French school system. I can safely say that the UK concept of Safeguarding - the idea that all adults who come into contact with a child have a responsibility for their safety and well being - does not exist here at all. Teachers have very little to do with pastoral care. There is the vie scolaire, but it is much more concerned with discipline and ensuring that the rules of the school are observed than it does with guidance, counselling etc. If a child at school discloses anything, the parents are always informed and it’s pretty much up to them to deal with it.

It still blows my mind tbh, the different attitudes to risk and safety etc. School trips, for example: no lead teacher as such, no risk assessments are done, nothing like that.

French children still nap in the afternoon often up to age 5yrs so that helps them stay up later.

and I suspect that a child who was a ‘snotty hysterical mess’ would get a smack and be told to stop being naughty, whatever the reason. 🤷‍♀️

I'm British bringing my DC up in France.

Agree with a lot of PPs (although there are tonnes of play parks around and mine go every day after school to the nearest one and play with friends of all ages.)

However about CIO - when we were in the midst of non sleeping babies/toddlers/children I was always told to CIO (except 1 Dr who said to cosleep). DS1 had reflux, was diagnosed lactose intolerant aged 3 and with adhd aged 9 so I am very glad I didn't do CIO. BUT when friends and colleagues had all got their DC to about age 7 suddenly they started "confessing" that actually their DC hadn't been sleeping through the night as babies/toddlers. And often said child was brought into bed with the parents. DH and I were astonished cos we'd always felt that we were doing it wrong. But in actual fact people just glossed over bad sleeping...

Also in France all kids eat at the school cantine. To bring a packed lunch you need a letter from the Dr plus a form plus agreement from the school.... and it needs renewing every year!

France again: every year at the start of term we have the headteacher and teachers begging parents to put their DC to bed earlier. They say they have tired children every day and its not fair
They understand we work late (in my office people rarely left before 7pm) but say its not fair on the DC.

North America - Have lived in both as a child and spent most of my life in Canada.
Bedtimes are pretty standard 8pm from infant til about 12. Bath every night and books read otherwise you're seen as a lazy or neglectful parent.

Dinner and weekend meals - always together as a family. Even babes in arms are seen at the table unless sleeping. No separate meals kids eat what adults eat unless there's SEN or allergies but usually the while family would adapt if it wasn't too restricted. Absolutely no sugar before 4 or you're ruining your child's life, same with salt it's highly restricted to the point that I don't even add salt when cooking. It's such a cultural hang up now for me.

Breastfeeding is expected or expressed breast milk. End of.(unless there's a 'reason' you're unable to) But very difficult and frowned upon if done in public but this is changing. Dummies are used alot more widely and accepted.

Manners, manners and you better use your manners when out and to elders in the family. Poor manners are seen to be synonymous with bad parenting. Kids are allowed to be much more free and can play out from a young age 5/6, walk to school from about 6, encouraged to explore and ask questions. If you get hurt while doing so, pick yourself up and crack on. If there are helicopter parents they stand out a mile.

Kids are often left home alone from a younger age as well for a couple of hours after school if parents are working usually from around 10 plus. Kids are also expected to do chores from an early.age and contribute to the family unit.

Education- less academic for the first couple of years. It's about learning through play, building confidence to ask questions and explore the answers, manners again and building relationships with others. How to dress, groom and be presentable as there rarely is school uniform from about the age of 4. To be proud of your heritage and country. National Anthems are sung every morning before school starts. In Canada from the age of 4 you learn the anthem in both English and French. You show respects for national anthems and you stand! Properly! (At home if waching sports for example everyone will stand for the anthem)

Less focus on preschools and day cares. They are available in abundance but parents seem to be able to be at home more with young children or have more family help. They are expensive but not nearly as dear as the UK.

Schools aren't necessarily chosen unless you need special requirements. You go to the nearest local school. There's no ofstead or anything like that. And parents are expected to be heavily involved in their education. You're expected to be at plays and award ceremonies, to help with the homework and volunteer for school projects and activity days.

More focus on outdoor living and sports. As a kid in the summer I'd be out from 8 am until 6 pm every day unless it was pelting down. Stricter rules around screens and devices. Lots of focus around arts and crafts, baking and making, bbqing and cooking, building and using your imagination.

Holidays tend to be with in Canada or America. Usually to a cottage or summer house on the lakes, mountains or beaches. Lots of camping and fishing. Summer and winter. Major holiday abroad every couple of years to the Caribbean or Mexico mainly. Think this down to the fact that Canadians and Americans don't get as much of a holiday entitlement as we do so things are closer to home.

Parenting is a lot more relaxed and kid centric, except when it comes to being polite and using manners, knowing how to behave outside of the home.