To wonder about other countries approaches to raising children

[Mamabear04]

I was approached in a supermarket by an elderly woman who I think just wanted a chat because she was lonely. I was with my baby and she proceeded to tell me about her son who lives in the Netherlands and how they let their kids stay up late, unlike British parents who can't wait to get their kids to bed. It got me to wondering about how other cultures raise their kids. I do put my children to bed early at 7pm, yes because I like to have the evenings to rest but also it means they gets a solid 11-12 hours sleep and wake for the working day at 7am. A friend who lives in France said that kids are seen and not heard there and have hardly any play parks (I was a bit shocked about the play parks tbh), she also said Israeli families consider their kids the biggest blessing from God and so let their kids do anything (in a nice way not an antisemitic way. They are a multicultural family). I also have a friend who said her cousin still sleeps in the same room as her parents at 9 years old and they live in UAE. I'm just so curious about how other cultures raise their kids and also how people see British families as well. I only ever hear that British families don't eat together and don't engage with their kids. Anyone from outwith the UK want to tell about how they raise their children? Do you really think of British families like this?

I live in the UK but I'm a gypsy and there are sooo many differences in our parenting, I found out about many of them by reading Mumsnet.

I really notice on mumsnet how people are soooooooo reluctant to give their kids independence, don't like them out on their own, or home alone, until they are far older than us the norm in a very large number of other countries. That is definitely a middle class British attitude

@ChurlishGreen that's an excellent post, I've always being confused about the level of angst

My children are half Israeli, and their full Israeli friends are wild! Direct to the point of being rude, less hierarchy with adults. There are elements of it I admire, such as the lack of British awkward over-politeness and passive aggression. But I also want my children to know their manners.

Hi OP

I was a nanny for many years in London and in the UK kids and adults are on separate schedules. Kids have their own schedule for everything and they eat different food and separately to the parents especially for dinner. They go to bed at 7 pm- yes kids need 11-12 sleep, however the parents argued they needed a break as well which I understand. 7 pm bedtime was the norm for every family I worked for so def the norm in UK.
I feel that 8.00 pm bedtime would have been a better compromise - so that the kids could enjoy a family dinner and eat with the parents but its not the end of the world. The meals consisted of kids favourites ( everything bland and no exposure to new tastes because kids wouldnt like it ) these were all well off middle class families too
People are also afraid to scold their children in public, they might give a warning but are never stern. The parents adapt to the kids and the kids rarely adapt to the parents
There is a huge emphasis on gentle guidance even when it is detrimental to that child's development
School will give sanctions but in general school's tolerate lots of bad behaviour and ok they might have a removal system - it doesnt teach the child how to behave it just temporarily fixes the problem. The same kids are removed all the time
Going back to the early years: you need to be wealthy to afford childcare. Someone on MN wrote " do not have kids if you cannot afford childcare"
I am an MFL teacher - on my salary I could never afford childcare - I would have to depend on my partner provided nothing ever happens to him. There is no help for working mothers - things are changing slightly now
Unfortunately I want a family and this means I will have to move to a different European country with different policies that support me and my partner staying in a career and NO I do not intend for me or my partner to cut our hours or earnings to make it work- the government needs to help us stay in work - I was shocked to see this is the norm in the UK
On a more positive note, UK schools do differentiated learning rather than one size fits all - which is a very good thing although bright students are not pushed in a comprehensive system
This is my experience and not everyone's.
I have been very grateful for everything the UK has given me - after my ECT years are over I will relocate

Regarding childcare, most people know about Finland having cheap (or free if you're low income) childcare but on the flip side, unless you live in a city where they have all kinds of daycamps and in Helsinki there is free supervised playgrounds in the summer where they get a free lunch too, there's no childcare in the summer once your child is too old for nursery, so 7, so if your child isn't ready to stay home alone all day at 7, and you don't have retired grandparents nearby to look after them, then you better split up your annual leave to cover the whole 10 weeks of summer or then one parent better go part time or not work at all.

I am Irish, but this is like us.

I can't quote which is a bit annoying.

I would say Irish parenting is a little more old fashioned than in GB - the word No is used freely and at volume here, and people are mostly willing to gently give out (not tell off ) other people's children. Although I'm comparing with what I read on MN, which is a land all its own.

Few enough differences though I would have thought.

Fellow italian here- I agree, italian schools do not teach about diversity and inclusion. Behaviour is appalling in UK schools- I have worked in 3 different UK schools
Independent schools are not the norm and a small percentage so they do not count

In France, most parents I know do cry it out, because they think the child needs to learn it is unacceptable to refuse to go to sleep.
I don't know anyone in my circles in the UK who use non-responsive sleep training like that.
Does anyone know any French families who do gentler sleep practices?

Nubnut - Responsive parenting - l'éducation bienveillante - is beginning to be more of a thing. But still niche https://www.pepites.co/blogs/news/comment-accompagner-bebe-avec-bienveillance-vers-le-sommeil

True @JudgeJ and there is ski Rossendale,or there was I haven't Been since I was about 15 !

Talista - yes, I've seen all that and on instagram too, but everyone I know in France still seems to be of the school where small children are expected to go to sleep with the ease of adults. Seems so unfair to their little minds and bodies.

In terms of children in public, I think France and the UK are similar in that many people would rather not have young children in restaurants (whereas in Italy and Spain, they are often so welcome); and consequently there is rarely changing tables in restaurants and so on.

However, in France people bring their kids to many more community and family events and let them stay up late whereas in the UK people would be worried their kids would cause trouble and get a babysitter or rush home to stick to their sleep schedules.

I do that there is a first child/second child nuance though. Once you're onto subsequent children you realize sticking to bedtime on a lovely summer sunny evening is mad, and you become much looser with routines because you lift your head up from parenting rules and look at the world around you!

Nubnut - the kids in my family in France are all older, so I don't know how things have shifted in the past 10 years, but I'd agree that even 'responsive' French parenting looks very different to the English variety - pretty certain all of my cousins kids were 'doing their nights' from the get go, even the ones with parents on the more hippy end of the spectrum (and some are faaaar on the other extreme).

Talista - yup, I think you're right.
It's just anti-science though, that's what I find weird about it. It doesn't match up with what we know about young children's sleep. It's simply not possible that so many are 'doing their nights' as such a young age, if you look at the research that's been done into childhood sleep patterns.

In France.

Breastfeeding rates are very low. Babies are expected to sleep through the night really early and yes CIO is pretty widespread. Parenting here is not crunchy at all. the expectation is very much that the baby fits into the parents lifestyle, not the other way round.

It’s normal for children of 1 yr plus to spend at least 2 weeks each summer away with each set of grandparents, and this continues through to the teenage years. Also normal for children as young as 4/5 yrs to go to colonies de vacances (residential summer camps) or on school trips of up to a week. DS was 5 when he went on his first 4 night school trip. Drop and run is normal at birthday parties from age 3yrs and up.

A French friend once remarked to me that the French parenting style is so different to the Anglo-Saxon style because ‘while you want your children to explore, experiment and find out the right thing to do, in France we parents already know what the right thing to do is and it’s our job to teach that to our children’. This sums it up well. France is a lot more socially conservative than the UK - there is a recognised ‘correct’ way to behave - whether it’s eating, food choices, behaviour in public, clothing choices, career / subject choices - and that is the framework (cadre) in which most children are raised.

In my experience Dutch bedtimes are the same, but parenting very different - weaning is almost always purees from jars and not baby led weaning, they’re obsessed with starting them with fruit purees. And always at 4 months on the dot. How they make bottles up would be heavily frowned upon here (no requirement for water to be boiling when it hits the formula powder). People routinely start their babies in nursery at 3 months which again, most people in the UK would be surprised by. By comparison the UK seems hyper anxious with rules.

This is so true.
What do they do with the ones who are utterly homesick?
Is it me or do French children seem more resilient, or more happy to be with their peers rather than with their parents?

Is it me or do French children seem more resilient, or more happy to be with their peers rather than with their parents?

there is definitely a huge emphasis in getting very young children used to being in a group setting, without parents. Most women go back to work after 3-6 months, and children go to a crèche where they inevitably have to be cared for in a group - and get used to waiting their turn. Nursery starts at 2/3yrs and can be full days - 8am to 4pm plus morning and afternoon garderie. So yes, most children are very accustomed to being in a group setting with their peers sans parents.

when I had my kids here, I volunteered to run a British-type playgroup where kids and parents could come along for the usual songs, crafts, story time, juice and biscuits and tea. Lots of French parents wanted to join as they wanted their children to speak English but went right off it when they found out they were expected to accompany their children and join in 🤷‍♀️. It’s just a totally different mindset.

A different French friend told me that the first (and most important) word that French children will learn is ‘attente ‘ ie. wait

I‘m English but live in rural Switzerland.

My experience is that Swiss parents are a lot more easy going than my English friends (and me!). It has it’s positives and negatives.

Like someone else said, kids go off skiing on their own, walk to kindergarten age 5 alone. Play outside alone.

The school is completely open. No fences, no locked doors. Anyone can walk in or out and it has happened that a 5 year old went home at 10am.

DS had an issue with bullying in school and there was zero policy on how to deal with it.

I was often surprised in the toddler and mother sport class that even the little kids were allowed to climb up high, often with inadequate mats underneath.

I like the freedom my kids have and have been challenged as a parent to be less anxious. But sometimes I feel that things are too lax and long for a little bit of health and safety!

I'm interested in bedtimes and why putting children to bed early is frowned upon. Don't children need a certain amount of sleep? Do we start school early? DD 11 goes to bed between 8 and 9 - depending on the activity - but we always have to wake her from a deep sleep for school.

I dislike child food that we have here and in the US and I do wonder whether it contributes to the amount of fussy children there are.

I'm Irish, moved back home from London when my eldest was 18 months. The biggest difference I see between Ireland and UK child rearing (well London really) is there's a lot less angst about it in Ireland.