Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To literally BEG women to set themselves up, financially?

782 replies

CallieRedux · 07/08/2023 14:14

Typed out a long post full of personal details, then deleted, but, honestly, the specifics don't matter. What DOES matter is that you save every tiny bit you can, because having FUCK YOU money is - by far - the most important thing you can do for yourself.

It's saved me from everything from wrong relationships, shit jobs, from natural disasters... I have both made lots of money, and not, but having savings, and the ability to walk away is having POWER, and the best "self care" a woman can have.

Shit happens. Things change. Even to you. Yes, you can save - even a little - when you are poor.

Do it. Please.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
TheaPrentice · 09/08/2023 12:30

DryIce - yes I know you weren't being snarky. My point was the same as yours - of course SAHMs should feel valued by DHs and themselves! This goes without saying. But my main point was, whether you work or not, if you decide to have children with a man of the 'what I earn is mine' mentality, then you are likely to reap what you sow.

SerafinasGoose · 09/08/2023 12:31

TheaPrentice · 08/08/2023 17:49

Being a SAHM does not need to be the inevitable disaster it is made out to be on here. As @EarringsandLipstick says, choice is always a good thing. There is no right way when it comes to families. It's a shame that too many women who would like to SAH, no longer can due to the cost of living necessitating two incomes these days.

The last point is the essential one, I think. It's not always a completely free choice, and the reason is that our society is primarily structured to benefit patriarchal interests.

That's the argument I'd like to see taken apart with a lot more gusto on sites like MN. Unfortunately, most of the SAHM vs. WOHM threads go the same way: each side attacking the other and somehow seeing a different lifestyle decision as a personal affront.

A far more constructive discussion would shift that focus onto how best to benefit women's interests (for a change).

I've tried. And failed.

DryIce · 09/08/2023 12:34

TheaPrentice · 09/08/2023 12:30

DryIce - yes I know you weren't being snarky. My point was the same as yours - of course SAHMs should feel valued by DHs and themselves! This goes without saying. But my main point was, whether you work or not, if you decide to have children with a man of the 'what I earn is mine' mentality, then you are likely to reap what you sow.

Yes agreed! A different case even, like some pps, you e always split money and both keep your own. But marrying and then becoming dependent on ansn with that attitude..danger!

anonymousxoxo · 09/08/2023 12:35

SerafinasGoose · 09/08/2023 12:31

The last point is the essential one, I think. It's not always a completely free choice, and the reason is that our society is primarily structured to benefit patriarchal interests.

That's the argument I'd like to see taken apart with a lot more gusto on sites like MN. Unfortunately, most of the SAHM vs. WOHM threads go the same way: each side attacking the other and somehow seeing a different lifestyle decision as a personal affront.

A far more constructive discussion would shift that focus onto how best to benefit women's interests (for a change).

I've tried. And failed.

Show quote history

These days being a SAHM is pure luxury.

Its the harsh reality, life is so expensive.

Hard enough getting a job these days.

The industry I work in moves sooo fast. Part time isn’t welcomed. If I took years out, I would lose career progression - salary increases - pension and financial stability.

Meanwhile, DH will be the opposite and I’ll be in poverty.

SerafinasGoose · 09/08/2023 12:37

Elephantsdontlikechocolate · 09/08/2023 09:59

Shocking some women treat their partners as if they are their young children. A stay at home mother looks after the children, not after a grown man. How disgusting some men will let their partners iron their shirts and make them breakfast. Bleugh. And bleugh. What is wrong with those women and men.

Show quote history

Yep. 'Looking after your husband' is a phrase that's anathema to me.

If, gods forbid, the worst happened to him healthwise I'd make adjustments to my career in a heartbeat if he truly needed my care. I know he'd do the same thing for me.

But a fit, well, able-bodied adult needing to be 'looked after' by another adult? Garn.

The inevitable holiday discussions have come up in his workplace of late, with so many of the women claiming they needed to do their husbands' packing for them and how busy they would be in the run-up toward taking off. It's never even occurred to me to do this! How on earth would I know what someone else wanted to wear? He feels the same, and would be no more minded to let me do his packing that I would be to have him do mine!

Bonkers.

DryIce · 09/08/2023 12:38

SerafinasGoose · 09/08/2023 12:31

The last point is the essential one, I think. It's not always a completely free choice, and the reason is that our society is primarily structured to benefit patriarchal interests.

That's the argument I'd like to see taken apart with a lot more gusto on sites like MN. Unfortunately, most of the SAHM vs. WOHM threads go the same way: each side attacking the other and somehow seeing a different lifestyle decision as a personal affront.

A far more constructive discussion would shift that focus onto how best to benefit women's interests (for a change).

I've tried. And failed.

Show quote history

I thought this thread was quite good at discussing the overall impacts without sniping at each other!

My personal fave new direction would be to see more flexibility at work with both men and women combining work and home duties

Anxioys · 09/08/2023 12:46

@DryIce - this is what happens in countries which have a better record of equality, with better lives for women. And the children appear not to lose out, having engaged fathers. It's a win win

Ohmygiddyauntie · 09/08/2023 13:51

Anxioys · 09/08/2023 12:46

@DryIce - this is what happens in countries which have a better record of equality, with better lives for women. And the children appear not to lose out, having engaged fathers. It's a win win

Where are these countries with this fabled equality?
Dp and I discussed the thread. He said, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." He knows men with secret stashes for the dreaded 'I'm not happy'. We both agree some people are terrible at negotiating pay rises. A company will pay you what you ask for. If colleagues earn more, they likely asked for it.

Anxioys · 09/08/2023 14:11

I don't think it's unfair that men feel similarly if they feel that their wives should have a job if they do. Likewise, a fund to depart is fine.

TheShellBeach · 09/08/2023 14:25

Even in the late 1800s, Agatha Christie's grandmother advised her always to have £50 in five pound notes, hidden from her husband. She told her it was essential for all women to have this little stash.
You have to bear in mind that in those days, women could only open bank accounts if their fathers or husbands gave them permission to do so, and that £50 then went a very, very long way.

anonymousxoxo · 09/08/2023 14:59

TheShellBeach · 09/08/2023 14:25

Even in the late 1800s, Agatha Christie's grandmother advised her always to have £50 in five pound notes, hidden from her husband. She told her it was essential for all women to have this little stash.
You have to bear in mind that in those days, women could only open bank accounts if their fathers or husbands gave them permission to do so, and that £50 then went a very, very long way.

Yeah, we have a lot to be thankful for (work is still needed) but feminists paved a way for women like us today.

If I want to buy something, I can use my card - no one needs to know. It's me.

Women can work and have maternity leave etc, before were fired.

Can get mortgage on our own name and have our own credit history.

Can drive etc

NellyBarney · 09/08/2023 15:37

DrasticAction · 09/08/2023 10:32

@NellyBarney on paper this sounds good.. And I can't deny I hope my own dds end up in good career with partner in good career.. However in RL this doesn't always work, where love comes in...

I know my dh parents were so excited when I first met dh and they dropped me off at our lovely family home in an expensive town.
I could sense their approval.
However they didn't realise that family home was soon to be sold and my patents divorced leading to very difficult and different living arrangements and the emotional fall out deeply affected me.
I had put too much of my reserves emotionally and mentally into their horrific divorce I didn't concentrate on myself at a critical time getting jobs.

Dh then wasn't exactly a promising prospect either however...

When his dp realised I didn't have ££ behind me and dh then was also floundering in the work front they actually treated us v differently from she sister eg being invited to family and friends events.

Sorry, I'm rambling here. The point being that dh and I are both gainfully employed and our issues we had melted away with each other and we have both brought money to the table and it's gone in see saw fashion. We are not well off by a long shot but we love each other and it's sort of worked for us.

Neither of us have amazing careers but we made some sacrifices years ago that are paying off now.

I would be very happy with 100 grand extra but we are just about happy with our lot... And can pay to fix the boiler. People sometimes have different goals and for me to have a reasonably happy home life is key.

Your relationship sounds great, and it sounds as you have worked hard together to build a good life, DrasticAction. That was basically my point, that while financial independence and earning power is important for women, seeing it as a 'runaway fund' should hopefully only be a plan b. For many women, especially if they do want children, finding a long term compatible partner makes life better and easier, and so does having 2 incomes and ideally 2 lots of savings (it usually takes 2 incomes to get onto the housing ladder nowadays, especially in London). And as most people meet their partners through work (or university), educational and career choices will greatly affect likely marriage prospects. Even Tinder matches people by matching university or jobs. And to do the best for your children, especially daughters, you want the best possible biological father, not least in terms of (inheritable) IQ and for educational support.

SouthLondonMum22 · 09/08/2023 16:41

TheaPrentice · 09/08/2023 12:03

DryIce - I think you are agreeing with me!

Personally, I would not have children with a man who wanted separate finances. It is a very unattractive trait and I have zero interest in that mentality.

I'm the opposite. I wouldn't get married or have children with someone who expected to share all of the finances, especially with a joint account.

I pay my fair share towards mortgage, nursery fees etc but the rest is mine in my personal account.

PopGoesTheWeaselYetAgain · 10/08/2023 03:30

anonymousxoxo · 09/08/2023 11:33

I like to keep my finances separate. I don’t want to combine or join them. I’m happy to pay a percentage of my salary towards bills. I don’t want my credit history ruined or tied to someone else.

I work 40+ hours a week sometimes (45) due to travel and have to deal with managers/colleagues work. I’ve earned that money through my hard work. It’s primarily mine, I signed the contract and that money should go to my bank account. I’m the one who studied for years and put myself through university.

I have no desire to fund someone to stay at home to do childcare, household chores and maintenance as many people do it alongside full time work. I’d rather pay for childcare.

Ultimately, working is harder than being a SAHM parent due to the factors I’ve listed above.

There’s also performance reviews, working with colleague and general sexism against women workers.

Show quote history

I think you're over generalising. I find working easier because i'm good at my job and not terribly good at being a sahm. I know a number of sahd who got made redundant, took early retirement or had to leave work because of illness. They say exactly the same as the women. You get home from the school run, switch the kettle on, turn around and it's 3 o'clock!

CaptainJackSparrow85 · 10/08/2023 06:04

Thepeopleversuswork · 08/08/2023 19:24

I don't think anyone is blaming SAHMs for workplace issues, just pointing it out as another example of patriarchy that disadvantages women. I am sure it works brilliantly for loads of families, and that is excellent for them. However until the SAHP is as likely to be dad as mum, it perpetuates stereotypes that impact us all. I definitely see the impact of this in the corporate world - around last minute changes in plans, networking put of work hours, travel expectations etc.

Exactly.

I would never criticise a SAHM for making that decision. Each family makes the decisions that suit them and sometimes it's not a choice. It is not the responsibility of SAHMs to work if they don't need or want to purely to further the cause of feminism.

But it is undeniably the case that men with children who are "facilitated" enjoy huge advantages over women with children who are not facilitated. In some fairly progressive industries it may matter less but in high paying ones its a massive handicap.

Until COVID I was required to pay a childminder to be at my desk for nine hours a day purely because the men in my office were non-specifically offended by the idea that I would work flexibly (and very competently) in order to fit around my daughter's schedule. No performance issue was ever raised, I worked harder and longer hours than most of my male colleagues. It was purely because the men (who were all either single, facilitated straight men in marriages or gay men) didn't like the idea that the playing field should be tilted a little way in my favour to compensate for the fact I was already operating with one hand tied behind my back.

Things have changed a bit but there's still very much an assumption that any kind of flexible working is an unfair advantage bestowed upon women by "woke culture" and the men constantly grumble about it. And there's absolutely no rational business reason whatsoever for it. It's just pure sexism and them not liking the fact that they are losing their natural place in the pecking order.

@TheaPrentice I completely respect your decision not to work and the choice you have made and I'll defend to the death your right to do it. I might even have done it myself if the option had been open to me. But trust me, the culture of facilitation of men by SAHMs is a huge, huge disadvantage for working women.

This is absolutely true - over the years I’ve found the absolute worst, and least understanding and accommodating, men to work with as a working mother are the men who have SAHMs at home.

They absolutely don’t understand the pressure you face on the home front on account of being able to opt out at home. But they’re generally under massive pressure of their own - it can’t be fun knowing your performance at work is the only thing standing between your kids and starvation.

I’ve found they’re frequently really bitter too. I think some of them go home after work and feel redundant because obviously the mother has a far closer relationship with the children than they do.

And the working mothers around them - particularly if those women have the audacity to work flexibly to do things for their children - are the best people to take all these feelings out on. Making for a pretty miserable life for any mother who needs to work for/with them.

By contrast I tend to find men (as a very general rule) who are married to women with career much, much easier to work with/for. Because they get it. They have to do their share at home.

Lemondream · 10/08/2023 06:40

Usernamen · 07/08/2023 17:58

I agree with this but I just don’t have any experience of this happening in the real world? I do admit to being in a London professional bubble though.

I wish there were reliable stats on this. I’m genuinely curious to find out if women are really jacking in their careers after kids to facilitate their husband’s career in large numbers? Are lawyers, accountants, surgeons, lecturers, management consultants etc. really abandoning their careers and looking after babies full time?

Show quote history

Not reliable stats but I know these women. London professional mid-late 30s couples. In my immediate circle of female friends and school gate acquaintances two lawyers, an investment banker, management consultant, marketing exec and a doctor have all become SAHMs in the last 2-5 years.

I assume they have their finances sorted, and all have lovely DHs. But it absolutely astonishes me. And, as PPs have said, as a woman with a full time job in financial services, I am in (very unequal) competition with their husbands on a daily basis.

Hadn't thought about the ‘marital assets’ only coming into play at the actual time of divorce, that was a very good point made by a PP in favour of keeping own bank account alongside joint. DH and I have always had a joint for household bills and our own accounts where salaries are paid into. Married 10 years now. I also have two empty credit cards in my name. I once had a discussion with DH about running away funds and he was offended by the name (!) but got the importance.

This is a brilliant thread to read. Some really insightful posts.

Lemondream · 10/08/2023 06:43

CaptainJackSparrow85 · 10/08/2023 06:04

This is absolutely true - over the years I’ve found the absolute worst, and least understanding and accommodating, men to work with as a working mother are the men who have SAHMs at home.

They absolutely don’t understand the pressure you face on the home front on account of being able to opt out at home. But they’re generally under massive pressure of their own - it can’t be fun knowing your performance at work is the only thing standing between your kids and starvation.

I’ve found they’re frequently really bitter too. I think some of them go home after work and feel redundant because obviously the mother has a far closer relationship with the children than they do.

And the working mothers around them - particularly if those women have the audacity to work flexibly to do things for their children - are the best people to take all these feelings out on. Making for a pretty miserable life for any mother who needs to work for/with them.

By contrast I tend to find men (as a very general rule) who are married to women with career much, much easier to work with/for. Because they get it. They have to do their share at home.

Show quote history

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Thepeopleversuswork · 10/08/2023 07:47

@SouthLondonMum22

I am the opposite. I wouldn't get married or have children with someone who expected to share all of the finances, especially with a joint account.

Me neither.

I understand that if one partner has sacrificed their income to care for children they should be supported.

But I have never got the assumption that all finances between two self sufficient working adults need to be pooled.

I worked for nearly 30 years before I met my DP and I have a child who is not his. I now earn 3x what he does. Why on earth should I be expected to automatically hand half of that over to an able bodied working man? (He’s not expecting me to thankfully).

anonymousxoxo · 10/08/2023 08:11

PopGoesTheWeaselYetAgain · 10/08/2023 03:30

I think you're over generalising. I find working easier because i'm good at my job and not terribly good at being a sahm. I know a number of sahd who got made redundant, took early retirement or had to leave work because of illness. They say exactly the same as the women. You get home from the school run, switch the kettle on, turn around and it's 3 o'clock!

Show quote history
  1. I am not generalising because I have experienced this myself
  2. I have to do what SAHM do alongside work
  3. I only work an hour extra and finish at 4 and school finishes 3:30pm so only half an hour difference.
  4. Oh, and I work 4 days from home.
  5. SAHM is much easier than having to work full time.
anonymousxoxo · 10/08/2023 08:12

CaptainJackSparrow85 · 10/08/2023 06:04

This is absolutely true - over the years I’ve found the absolute worst, and least understanding and accommodating, men to work with as a working mother are the men who have SAHMs at home.

They absolutely don’t understand the pressure you face on the home front on account of being able to opt out at home. But they’re generally under massive pressure of their own - it can’t be fun knowing your performance at work is the only thing standing between your kids and starvation.

I’ve found they’re frequently really bitter too. I think some of them go home after work and feel redundant because obviously the mother has a far closer relationship with the children than they do.

And the working mothers around them - particularly if those women have the audacity to work flexibly to do things for their children - are the best people to take all these feelings out on. Making for a pretty miserable life for any mother who needs to work for/with them.

By contrast I tend to find men (as a very general rule) who are married to women with career much, much easier to work with/for. Because they get it. They have to do their share at home.

Show quote history

100%! Women have to work around the big mans job, then wonders why she is on a low salary and not getting promoted.

anonymousxoxo · 10/08/2023 08:13

Lemondream · 10/08/2023 06:40

Not reliable stats but I know these women. London professional mid-late 30s couples. In my immediate circle of female friends and school gate acquaintances two lawyers, an investment banker, management consultant, marketing exec and a doctor have all become SAHMs in the last 2-5 years.

I assume they have their finances sorted, and all have lovely DHs. But it absolutely astonishes me. And, as PPs have said, as a woman with a full time job in financial services, I am in (very unequal) competition with their husbands on a daily basis.

Hadn't thought about the ‘marital assets’ only coming into play at the actual time of divorce, that was a very good point made by a PP in favour of keeping own bank account alongside joint. DH and I have always had a joint for household bills and our own accounts where salaries are paid into. Married 10 years now. I also have two empty credit cards in my name. I once had a discussion with DH about running away funds and he was offended by the name (!) but got the importance.

This is a brilliant thread to read. Some really insightful posts.

Show quote history

acquaintances two lawyers, an investment banker, management consultant, marketing exec and a doctor have all become SAHMs in the last 2-5 years.

All that education and training just to become a SAHM, what a waste.

anonymousxoxo · 10/08/2023 08:14

Thepeopleversuswork · 10/08/2023 07:47

@SouthLondonMum22

I am the opposite. I wouldn't get married or have children with someone who expected to share all of the finances, especially with a joint account.

Me neither.

I understand that if one partner has sacrificed their income to care for children they should be supported.

But I have never got the assumption that all finances between two self sufficient working adults need to be pooled.

I worked for nearly 30 years before I met my DP and I have a child who is not his. I now earn 3x what he does. Why on earth should I be expected to automatically hand half of that over to an able bodied working man? (He’s not expecting me to thankfully).

100%! People should be independent and work for themselves, not expect their partner to fund their lifestyle to be a SAHM. When many mothers work AND manage to do household chores etc alongside their DH!

Lemondream · 10/08/2023 08:27

@anonymousxoxo as per PPs, I support a woman’s right to make whatever choice she wants but it’s just….not a conversation men are having, is it?

I think you’d have to look much harder to find a cohort of similarly qualified men who had all decided to give up earning power upon having children.

So I say it’s a choice women are making, but there must be societal influence at play. Slightly off topic though I guess!

PopGoesTheWeaselYetAgain · 10/08/2023 08:28

anonymousxoxo · 10/08/2023 08:11

  1. I am not generalising because I have experienced this myself
  2. I have to do what SAHM do alongside work
  3. I only work an hour extra and finish at 4 and school finishes 3:30pm so only half an hour difference.
  4. Oh, and I work 4 days from home.
  5. SAHM is much easier than having to work full time.
Show quote history

The only people I know who literally only do SAHM have a lot if children. You're generalising from your own personal experience - that's what generalising means!