To consider myself working class?

[TheCatsKnickers]

I'm fully aware that it doesn't matter, but for the sake of argument - basically an ongoing debate with friend who insists I am middle class - which of us would be correct?

My background:
Dad probs upper working, good job but no higher education, bought our house and subsequent houses without mortgage. Mum from educated family but was SAHM. Grew up in MC area and schools, kept horses but more rough and tumble than 'posh'. Had a few years off too travel and have fun in late teens largely funded by parents, then went to uni late and studied fine art.
This, according to my friend cements me as MC.

The present day:
Followed my passion and became a painter. Didn't want to marry or have children so chose to rent. Preferred this as could move around and experience different places. Bit of a free spirit, but had to accept some financial insecurity for the pleasure! Am now in 40's and still similar, very content with long term DP but, I presume, not typical for many my age.
I have a decent 5 figure sum in savings although we received only a smallish inheritance due to both parents needing care in old age (they had also given their second property to an aunt and uncle who developed health issues in later life).
My income is somewhat fluid and would possibly terrify some, but I have intermittently earned very, very well and often receive high payments for my work (anywhere from £200 to £1k per commission or piece), but some months are quite the opposite.
So my lifestyle is not standard and has some financial insecurity, but I made my own choices.
Therefore, since I don't own a home or have a private pension I perceive my status to be 'working class', regardless of my background privileges and lifestyle. My friend argues not!

Which of us is correct?

Ha, my first name is Lucy so I have often been called 'Lu'.
Therefore I have refused, my life long, to call a toilet a loo.

Middle class.. come on

‘If you called your dad you could stop it all, yeah’

sorry OP, I don’t wish to be mean - tho any excuse for a Pulp lyric! - and I wish you all the best and am sure you are talented and work hard. But no, you are not working class and your friend is correct.

You’re MC. Obviously people have mentioned the obvious things such as horses but you have come from such a privileged position that has enabled you to make your lifestyle choices. Everything from not having children, not needing a partner, deciding not to own and be a penniless artist without a pension.

I don’t even feel like I can describe myself as working class as on paper I'm probably more middle class (I’m definitely more working class than you though) but my family is working class. So I wasn’t on free school meals but I was just above the threshold, we didn’t live in council housing but I lived in one of the most deprived areas of the UK. I wasn’t the first In my family to go to uni, my uncle was but he went due to a scholarship. I was the second and I think the only one from my primary school to go and part of a small percentage of my secondary school that went to university. I don’t know a single person that did a fine art degree, I’m sorry that would be considered a pointless degree by my entire family. Both my parents did not agree to me doing a masters because I needed to get out there and get a proper job. A contract job in my degree subject was not seen as a proper job - full time, secure, stable income was a proper job. Travelling for a few years is an absolutely laughable idea. I have my masters but I saved up for it and did it while working full time. I had fixed term contracts for a while and my parents were not happy because it wasn’t secure.

You can’t see it. You can’t see your privilege and the impact it has had on your lifestyle. My daughter will likely be classed as middle class but I won’t ever tell her to go and do what makes her happy. I will be telling her to work hard and get a job that pays above NMW. That whilst money doesn’t buy you happiness, it does make life easier and when there is an economic downturn it’s much easier to ride that out if she’s earning above NMW with a secure job. I won’t be pushing her to work all the hours in a job just to get money but if she has a salary above average then she can use her free time to do the meaningful things in life that she wants to do. If she’s lucky, that might turn into a steady and secure income for her but it’s not solely down to how talented she is or how hard she works but how lucky she is. I would never encourage her to rent instead of own. I would tell her that mortgages go down over time and rent will only ever go up. That she might not receive an inheritance and so she need a pension and to plan for that, she needs to own her own home and not be subject to the whim of a landlord in her retirement. I can’t see either of my parents encouraging DD to rent indefinitely instead of own. My mum was so proud of herself when she paid her mortgage off, she’d come close to losing the house but she owned that. She’s not retired yet but she’s secure going into retirement knowing she needs some aside for house repairs but it’s just her general day to day living expenses she needs to find. It’s really freeing for her when she is still working and not knowing when she’ll have enough to retire that she doesn’t at least have to figure rent into the equation.

We learn behaviours from our upbringing. Whilst my upbringing wasn’t as working class as some people on this thread, it has definitely influenced my thinking and decisions going be forward. The reason people are angry at you is because you literally can’t see that you don’t have any of these hang ups that you’ve brought forward into your adult life and you’ve just been able to do whatever you want. You’ve had a safety net there.

That’s the thing though, you are talking about choice; which is what makes the distinction between working class and middle class in these examples. However; often those in subsequent generations don’t have the choice; which means they are more likely to be working class.

Why do you care?

That is more a ‘posh’ thing

Some MC people wouldn’t say toilet but plenty would

You sound distinctly middle class to me Op. I say this as someone who grew up with both parents married (to each other) & both working 2 plus jobs to pay the bills & even then, my Nan still had to help pay for our school uniforms. We never wanted for any of the basics (food, clothes, roof over our heads) as my mum & dad worked (& worried!) their arses off to ensure we had what we needed and never went hungry but your posts reek of entitlement that no working class person would ever display.

We never had holidays or anything over & above the minimum but we were happy, healthy & safe. They also emphasised education above everything else.

I've done my best to get a degree (first person in my family) & work my arse off so that my kids don't feel the poverty or worry I felt growing up. I assume they'd class themselves as middle class. If they had the cheek to think they were anything else, I'd put them straight!

You really have no idea.

Your online voice shows your middle clas status because of what you speak about (your background and choices) and the language you use to speak about it.

Why can't someone "move down"? Because you accumulate social and cultural capital that you pass on to your children - you can't unlearn it. And, as this thread proves, claiming to be working class when you're not is treated with more derision and suspicion than the other way around, partly because the aspirational pathway for many Britons in the last hundred years has been towards the middle class.

@PurpleBananaSmoothie

I'm as middle class as they come and have always put steady income and future planning at the forefront of life and taught my kids the same.
The idea that MC people don't have to worry about any of that stuff is ludicrous. We do. It's one of the reasons we stay MC.

Money and social class are not connected.

They are connected but not synonymous

Well my dad called it a 'petty' or the shit-house, and the rest of my family called it the bog or lav.

There you go. Lav/lavatory is textbook middle class.

This typified most of my MC surroundings and friends as a child, their parents were super strict. My own family were very hey ho, open minded on the surface, but I dare say bloody serious underneath. We were encouraged to follow our hearts, as both parents had previously had feelers in the arts, so possibly not typical of MC.

My DP was non struggling WC and his parents were very adamant that he should not pursue an education.

I’m not usually interested in any of this but your comment resonated with me; for complicated reasons I no longer have to worry about future proofing my income. Where does that leave me on the class scale, assuming I was boringly middle class previously?

you mean like shit-house?

No way are you wc. The fact that you felt free to make the choices uoj have, knowing that you would be supported if needed are much documented as middle class. Its not all about income , but attitides, freedoms etc .
for example i was in the top set in a wc school.. i went to uni.. there was no way i allowed myself to choose a subject were the wage was as variable as yrs for when i left uni… it was not a psychological option that i could even begin to consider , given my background which was a wc mining community. Your choices are firmky immersed in mc security and knowledge of yr background and the innate security it has suggested to you throughout life .

Why? Would it make you feel good?

My income is different each month, I can't offer an annual sum. I am not below the poverty line, if that helps.

This thread reminds me of a discussion (argument) I had with a friend at uni who insisted he was working class because his parents "barely had any money left for holidays after sending all 4 kids to private school" 😂 bit of a twatty thing to say as he knew I grew up on a very rough council estate and was incredibly poor growing up

Off tangent a bit but - this reminded me of something I read a while back in the guardian (typically class obsessed!), I think by Polly Toynbee. She wrote an article about her early life privileges and mentioned many girls at her school who were never chosen to go to Oxbridge due to their parent's not being in the professions, regardless their aptitude. She obviously was aware that her heritage paved the way for her own success.

I once heard that many girls in the 60's were given harder questions on their maths 11 plus, so that they couldn't outdo the boys :( No idea if this is true but i can certainly see it happening.

in the 90's i had lots of mc friends at sixth form who wanted to be working class. If i recall it had more to do with a sense of authenticity; rejecting their plotted life path in life, sticking it to the man.

Which they never actually did, incidentally

I didn’t necessarily say it was. Many MC parents will encourage their children into stable jobs, usually in traditional MC roles such as accountant, doctor, solicitor, engineer. However, as a general rule I would say MC aren’t expecting their kids to be in NMW roles past the end of full time education. The difference is, particularly for bright WC kids, they are told to work hard and go for those jobs rather to assume they are a given. If a MC kid does end up working in a NMW role, say they aren’t academic or don’t apply themselves, it is likely that they will still see a small chunk of inheritance. It’s likely that their parents can help them with a deposit for a house (even just a small one) or offer a loan to buy a new car. So NMW if your parents can give you an interest free loan for a new car is not the same as NMW if your parents are on UC and carers allowance. Generally, both WC and MC parents are going to want their kids to be in a better financial position than they were but the motivations are going to be different.

My point is that OP has grown up MC. Her mum was educated but never had to work. Her dad was able to buy properties outright. Her family didn’t struggle financially and so she has deliberately chosen an unstable and precarious lifestyle. Nobody I know from a working class background would knowingly put themselves into that position, I watched my mum worry about struggling to pay the bills. I spent a lot of time with my grandparents because my mum had to travel for jobs that were above NMW and she still worried about money. I will be advising my daughter to get a job that pays above NMW because I don’t want her to have to worry about paying the bills or losing her house. I don’t want her to go through what I watched my mum go through. You will be advising your children to get stable, well paying jobs because it’s how you keep your wealth and pass it on. The motivations are different.