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Flexible working revoked - help!!

410 replies

Tiredofbeingtired1 · 05/08/2023 07:59

Looking for a sounding board for a problem I'm having at work. Not sure what to do really...

So, I had a baby and returned after a 9 month maternity leave, but when my son was 5 months old, I discussed my return to work with my boss (male).

(I work as a PA for two people who own and run the company)

I asked to return to work 5 days a week, but to work 2 days from home and also if I could leave at 4.30pm instead of my contracted finish of 5pm in order to pick up my son from nursery. I was told that none of this was a problem and that I didn't need to be in when my boss wasn't in (he also worked 3 days a week in the office).

So I returned to work with this set up and did absolutely everything to make this work, which included working through lunch breaks and responding to emails from 6am-10pm 7 days a week.

After 8 months of this being in place, I was told (in the middle of the office, not privately) that they were going to need to ask me to return to the office 4 days a week as they couldn't give me something they weren't giving to the rest of the staff. I was assured that this had nothing to do with my performance as they know I'm working all the time, but purely to do with what other people in the office are allowed.

I had many discussions with them about the impact of this on me, and that it would cost me almost an extra £400 in childcare costs per month, to which I was told effectively that if I can't afford to have kids, I shouldn't have them.

At this point, two other women were having their working from home revoked, but they had had it for 11 and 14 years, and their children were in secondary school by this point.

In the discussions for this, my boss (female) had suggested to me that on the extra day I was being asked to work in the office, I could leave early. This was purely her idea and was even suggesting around lunchtime.

After all my protests, I was told they would get back to me...however 5 months later nobody had. As this was being requested to start in September, I approached my boss (female) last week to discuss it before my holiday, and her holiday. She seemed surprised, but thankful that I had put the wheels in motion and was making this happening and agreed that it had kind of been forgotten about (not by me, I can assure you!). When I then raised her idea of leaving early on the extra day in the office, she didn't seem to recall this conversation and actually seemed quite annoyed by it, asking "how early?". I suggested 3.30pm instead of 4.30pm, and as I could see that this request wasn't going down well, I suggested it be for the first 3 weeks to help my son settle in (as this also coincides with him moving to preschool).

She then said that we need to review my leaving at 4.30pm on other days, and would I be willing to leave at 5pm (my contracted time) instead. I said that it wasn't a case of being willing, but that if I left at that time, I wouldn't be able to make it to the nursery before they shut. She seemed in disbelief that it would take me that long to get home, but I pointed out that whilst Google might suggest it is an hour, that is if I hit all my connections and there is no traffic. In practice, this is never the case, and it it always takes me around 1 hour 20 mins.

Her reasoning for asking me to leave at 5pm was again, for parity across the office, but also in case her or my other boss need something urgent between 4.30-5pm. Whilst I understand this, in practice I don't think this is actually the case, as all day I am asked for very little and I am the proactive one asking if they need things all the time. I can't believe that something urgent would be regularly happening in the last 30 mins of the day.

She also said that if they finish a meeting after 4.30pm and I am gone, they might need something, and it's not fair on other members of staff as it puts more pressure on them. Whilst this is true, I have been back through the diaries and in the 201 days I have worked back in the office, they have had meetings that have gone beyond 4.30pm 18 times. Also, they have never had someone come to the office for a meeting that starts after 4.30pm.

Therefore I feel that this isn't a reflection of what actually happens. I can't believe that they ask for very little all day, but in that last 30 mins something urgent comes up. She also acknowledged that I am on email my whole journey home, but it's if something happens that I am needed in person. She accepted the fact I work through my lunch, and from early morning until late evening on emails, but that it was not about total hours worked.

For context, my company are very anti flexible working. I joined 3 days before lockdown in 2020, and went on maternity leave in July 2021, so had spent a massive amount of my employment working from home. They are on a drive to get people back to the office and don't want anyone working from home. They recently conducted a staff survey, and in that almost every member of the office requested more flexibility with working from home. Therefore they are begrudgingly reviewing it, but it seems they are missing the point that flexible working doesn't have to be the exact same conditions for everyone and that it is a case by case scenario.

I am unsure as to whether I am being unreasonable, or if not, how hard to push on this - especially given that I was told by my boss (male) that he asked if he could get rid of me when I told him I was pregnant!!

We are a small team and don't have an official HR department. We recently just got a freelance HR person in, but I'm unsure as to how much I trust them yet. Also, in my capacity as a PA I work very closely with my bosses and maintaining a good relationship is important. I'm not trying to rock the boat or get special privileges, but it's hard to make things work when the agreement keeps changing. I returned to work based on certain conditions and I set my life up around them.

Any advice would be so gratefully received as it is keeping me up at night!

Thank you!

OP posts:
Gcsunnyside23 · 05/08/2023 13:45

mariiiaa · 05/08/2023 13:26

Working from home doesn't always mean someone is taking the piss by having kids with them and doing a half arsed job.

It can be that it just gives the employee more flexibility with time.

They can do the nursery or school run (often very local to the home) without the commute to work ontop.

This means they can work their contracted hours without having to factor in an extra couple of hours a day to do the school/nursery run either side.

This saves money on travel costs and the time they have to pay for extra hours/ wrap around care where the parent is travelling back from work.

I don't mean a blanket statement that anyone WFH with kids is taking the piss I was saying baby/toddler specific. Older children yes you definitely could and I totally agree about school age children where the flexibility would be great for drop off and picks ups or if it's an emergency where they are ill. I even think school holidays are fine as it's not long term but a baby/toddler needs so much attention that I don't think you could work and look after them without work suffering. I honestly think the best thing to come from COVID is the work/life balance WFH has offered.The ops work may agree and this could be why they are making people come back (I'm not saying op is slacking, it may be someone else in the business has and ruined the situation for others). I was also mentioning dropping doing extra hours as her work don't seem to be appreciating it and are being so rigid then she should be also if they enforce being in the office

LlynTegid · 05/08/2023 13:48

I think the two are have had over 10 years wfh revoked would have a cast iron case at any employment tribunal as it is an implied contract term. Your situation slightly different.

Seek advice from ACAS or a union if you are in one. The argument about everyone being in the office equally is rubbish.

sunglassesonthetable · 05/08/2023 13:49

I don’t understand anyone thinking it’s reasonable to work from home
and be the childcare. You cannot do both things well at the same time.

Like I said I agree with that. Totally.

It's the way you described dealing with it that told me a lot.

Redbrickrebel · 05/08/2023 13:50

You should have really started looking for another job when the flexible/hybrid working was first muted as being stopped.

Many roles - and I include mine - have hybrid/flexi 'unofficially ' - it was never added to contracts after lockdown. For this reason, it can be revoked on the whim of a manager.

I only WFH one day a week, but if that got cancelled we would need to find £150 pm for child and dog care.

sunglassesonthetable · 05/08/2023 13:51

I don’t understand anyone thinking it’s reasonable to work from home
and be the childcare. You cannot do both things well at the same time.

Like I said I agree with that. Totally.

It's the way you described dealing with it that told me a lot.

loftconversi0n · 05/08/2023 13:55

Where is the father of the baby?

thereisnorightanswer · 05/08/2023 13:56

sunglassesonthetable · 05/08/2023 13:51

I don’t understand anyone thinking it’s reasonable to work from home
and be the childcare. You cannot do both things well at the same time.

Like I said I agree with that. Totally.

It's the way you described dealing with it that told me a lot.

You’re entitled to your opinion, whatever that might be. I’m entitled to disagree with it!

A lot of people are continuing to miss the point that the OP hasn’t just asked to work from home - she’s asked for reduced hours that cannot reasonably be filled by another hire. Either she cuts back to mornings only and does a job share with an afternoons only PA, or she looks for another job.

Flexible working has to work for both the employee and the business.

sunglassesonthetable · 05/08/2023 13:59

You’re entitled to your opinion, whatever that might be. I’m entitled to disagree with it!

Have never disputed that!

Just whilst agree with your main point. I think your way of dealing with the issue sounds like a teacher telling off a child.

That would tell me the culture of the company is something I wouldn't want to be part of.

I feel like it's the same in the OP's situation.

They're disorganised. The right hand doesn't know what the left is doing. They've backtracked. She's not being appreciated.

Move on OP.

blueshoes · 05/08/2023 14:03

OP needs to come back and clarify whether she has formal childcare in place on the days she currently WFH or is she looking after her baby during work hours.

I suspect she does not have childcare because she is less productive during the day and feels the need to make up for it by "working through lunch breaks and responding to emails from 6am-10pm 7 days a week". 6 am is because that is when the baby wakes up and 10 pm is after the baby goes to bed. Weekends is when her partner is around.

PAs (or at least I am told by my PA) generally have to clear their plate by the end of the day. If that is not happening, then it is possible that OP is not giving her bosses the work in a timely manner. Revoking WFH is a way of clawing back this loose arrangement so that it works better for the employer.

I could be entirely wrong so waiting for the OP to revert. It is also important to know whether the OP's arrangement was formally agreed under the Flexible Working Regulations. If the OP goes to the HR bod to challenge this, her childcare arrangements would come under the microscope. If OP does not have childcare in place, she would not have a leg to stand on and she truly cannot afford to do this job.

afishcalledbreanda · 05/08/2023 14:03

Well, if they know she's taking the piss by doing full-time childcare while 'working' of course they don't appreciate her.

WeAreTheHeroes · 05/08/2023 14:04

This reply has been deleted

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

You absolutely can. I know many who do. A lot of people who have a PA or EA work from home and are out a lot/in meetings, many of them via Teams/zoom/Google meetings. As long as the job gets done the actual location and structuring of the working hours make little difference. It speaks volumes that the OP is not taking a break and her bosses think this is laudable. It's required by law.

WeAreTheHeroes · 05/08/2023 14:04

I know PAs in different time zones to the people they work for too!

sunglassesonthetable · 05/08/2023 14:06

Well, if they know she's taking the piss by doing full-time childcare while 'working' of course they don't appreciate her.

We don't know what they know.

IbizaToTheNorfolkBroads · 05/08/2023 14:06

@EbiRaisukaree - I agree. I work for one do, have done for nearly 20 years and have two teens. But the post re: civil service jobs what to alert the OP to the more flexible nature of many of these roles.

EbiRaisukaree · 05/08/2023 14:09

IbizaToTheNorfolkBroads · 05/08/2023 14:06

@EbiRaisukaree - I agree. I work for one do, have done for nearly 20 years and have two teens. But the post re: civil service jobs what to alert the OP to the more flexible nature of many of these roles.

Yes, I agree in general we are lucky to have good flexibility' so it is a good option for working parents. I’m in a team which has always been permanent homeworkers, for the 25 years I’ve been there, and we’ve always had the childcare stipulation. I just don’t want the OP to think she can switch and still be able to look after the child during working hours.

blueshoes · 05/08/2023 14:10

Speaking as someone who used to have a PA, you have to work when your boss does. Your entire job is to make their life easier, and as soon as you start disappearing when they need you, they realise that due to all the efficiencies in technology these days, they can do without you full time.

The concept of needing a PA is getting more and more outdated. It’s therefore the sort of job where visibility is important.

I hate to say this but the job of a PA is going the way of the dinosaur in my office. Only dinosaurs use PAs. The younger generation find it easier to get to grips with technology, most things are done via email and online systems. Younger bosses don't send work out to their secretaries as much. My office secretaries are finding it hard to keep busy 8 hours a day. They know what is coming. If they quit or retire, the company will not replace them.

Yes, face time and demonstrating value to the business is important if you are a PA who wants to keep your job in this age of digital transformation and generative AI.

sunglassesonthetable · 05/08/2023 14:13

I work where I am trusted to fulfill my role.

They don't care if I am sitting in a play pen with the kids on my lap. And I have never worked with a more professional or conscientious bunch.

I get lots of jobs have different requirements though before everyone jumps in.

But there is nothing that 30 mins at the end of the day will fix. That modern tech can't accommodate.

Many many PA s are remote workers now.

This thread is interesting when I think of all the people who busted their bollocks at home, working with young kids right there, during lockdown. You'd think it never happened in some places.

thereisnorightanswer · 05/08/2023 14:20

blueshoes · 05/08/2023 14:10

Speaking as someone who used to have a PA, you have to work when your boss does. Your entire job is to make their life easier, and as soon as you start disappearing when they need you, they realise that due to all the efficiencies in technology these days, they can do without you full time.

The concept of needing a PA is getting more and more outdated. It’s therefore the sort of job where visibility is important.

I hate to say this but the job of a PA is going the way of the dinosaur in my office. Only dinosaurs use PAs. The younger generation find it easier to get to grips with technology, most things are done via email and online systems. Younger bosses don't send work out to their secretaries as much. My office secretaries are finding it hard to keep busy 8 hours a day. They know what is coming. If they quit or retire, the company will not replace them.

Yes, face time and demonstrating value to the business is important if you are a PA who wants to keep your job in this age of digital transformation and generative AI.

I agree with you. I used to have a PA write up my meeting notes - these days, I bring a laptop into a meeting, and I type them up myself.

I used to have a PA book meeting rooms for me - now I just press a button and automatically schedule a Zoom or Teams meeting.

I used to have a PA book travel for me - these days, I’m having more and more meetings remotely and/or working from the office more.

I used to have a PA format things for me. But now I have templates.

I’m not entirely sure what a PA could do for me to make my life easier these days, given I know how to use a computer. A PA is not a fee earner, so they only create value by freeing up a fee earner’s time.

Once the less tech savvy people retire, there will be zero need for a PA to support fee earners. If there was ever a job where you should be falling over yourself to show you’re still relevant… it’s being a PA.

nonheme · 05/08/2023 14:21

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

blueshoes · 05/08/2023 14:22

They don't care if I am sitting in a play pen with the kids on my lap. And I have never worked with a more professional or conscientious bunch.

I get lots of jobs have different requirements though before everyone jumps in.

I am going to jump in.

A secretary's job most definitely cannot be done in a play pen with kids on your lap. It requires a computer/laptop ideally with dual screens, possibly printer and scanner. It also needs to be done in a timely manner, not after the kids have gone to bed because then the boss loses a day.

I understand there are virtual secretaries. It makes more sense to pay secretaries per piece of work, than for a full day, if they are not focused on doing that job within the contracted hours.

sunglassesonthetable · 05/08/2023 14:25

A secretary's job most definitely cannot be done in a play pen with kids on your lap. It requires a computer/laptop ideally with dual screens, possibly printer and scanner. It also needs to be done in a timely manner, not after the kids have gone to bed because then the boss loses a day.

Totally comprehend that. 😀👌

I think I'm interested in the trust relationship.

afishcalledbreanda · 05/08/2023 14:26

As long as the job gets done the actual location and structuring of the working hours make little difference.

It's years since I worked anywhere where people had PAs, but when I did the whole point was that the PA was there to smooth out problems whenever they occurred. So if the boss's flight from Singapore to London was cancelled at the last minute, his PA was expected to arrange a new flight and rearrange any meetings he was booked for — even if it was outside normal working hours. A PA's job didn't cut off at 5pm sharp and resume at 9am. I think the OP is in the wrong job.

nonheme · 05/08/2023 14:27

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

Fedupdoc · 05/08/2023 14:29

I agree with others that say look elsewhere. Plenty of employees are willing to be flexible and would appreciate you. They sound not at all worth the effort

blueshoes · 05/08/2023 14:30

thereisnorightanswer · 05/08/2023 14:20

I agree with you. I used to have a PA write up my meeting notes - these days, I bring a laptop into a meeting, and I type them up myself.

I used to have a PA book meeting rooms for me - now I just press a button and automatically schedule a Zoom or Teams meeting.

I used to have a PA book travel for me - these days, I’m having more and more meetings remotely and/or working from the office more.

I used to have a PA format things for me. But now I have templates.

I’m not entirely sure what a PA could do for me to make my life easier these days, given I know how to use a computer. A PA is not a fee earner, so they only create value by freeing up a fee earner’s time.

Once the less tech savvy people retire, there will be zero need for a PA to support fee earners. If there was ever a job where you should be falling over yourself to show you’re still relevant… it’s being a PA.

thereisnorightanswer, your post gives perfect examples of what is happening in my office with bosses no longer giving out work to secretaries. These bosses were trained during covid to work more independently because everyone was working remotely and secretaries could not offer the TLC and so the bosses adapted. Secretaries were furloughed.

When we came back into the office, the bosses realised it was faster and more efficient to do things themselves and continued to do so. The secretaries' workload plunged from there and never recovered back to pre-furlough levels even though their numbers remained the same.

Your use of the word 'fee-earner' suggests that we might work in the same type of sector.

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