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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think I've broken my children

123 replies

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz · 02/08/2023 21:53

They are doing my head in. 7 year old and 4 year old. They refuse to go to the toilet on their own and refuse to sleep on their own. The 7yo will eventually go to the toilet on her own but the 4yo won't and will soil herself if someone doesn't take her. They will not fall asleep alone or sleep unless next to a parent ie in the same bed. And not good sleepers - I've been laying here for two hours waiting for them to fall asleep. Both still in nappies. What the hell have I done to make it so hard?! Both neurotypical.

OP posts:

TestingTestingWonTooFree · 02/08/2023 21:57

I’m not surprised you’re finding it difficult. That sounds suffocating.

Have they always been like this? How do you know they’re NT?

Cakeandcoffee93 · 02/08/2023 21:57

Hi op,
are they both in school/ nursery?
i say get them checked out if they are wetting the bed- could be a UTI.
don’t blame yourself, I’m super soft with my dd.
she’s still got her dummy and she’s four soon. We only mastered nappies and potties because of nursery.
I would come up with a reward system, work really hard to establish them going to the toilet on their own with door open,
as for sleeping, it won’t last, read a book at night and sing a song, get a night light, then sleep time,
id do all of this now during the summer. Run them ragged during the day, even tho it’s raining get out in wellies etc. hot bath after and early night.
Make sure they’ve weed before bed etc
Youve not ruined them at all.

NuffSaidSam · 02/08/2023 21:58

They're either not NT or you need to do some sleep training asap.

Bookish88 · 02/08/2023 21:59

You have an NT 7YO who's still in nappies? Do you just mean for nighttime? Have you taken them to the GP?

Original poster

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz · 02/08/2023 21:59

Just at nighttime. Was clean during the day at just turned 3.

OP posts:

DelurkingAJ · 02/08/2023 22:00

You must be wrung out. Sounds tough.

Firstly…nappies, night time ones are common until about 8. If the child doesn’t make the right hormone they will not be dry. It’s physiological…so don’t beat yourself up.

Secondly…really common to want help going to the loo, but the summer holidays are an excellent time to gently persuade the youngest to ‘get ready for school, how exciting’ by going at home on their own. Nothing wrong with light weight bribery if your cold works like that.

Sleep…urgh, both of mine were excellent going to sleepers and terrible staying asleepers. Someone will have better advice than I do.

Also, remember that if it wasn’t this it’s be something else…I am not going to dwell on my 8 year old’s current general attitude to food…

Curtainswithpompoms · 02/08/2023 22:00

How do you know they’re NT?

Ponoka7 · 02/08/2023 22:02

So is the continence team involved? Has there been any trauma, stepdad etc?

Original poster

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz · 02/08/2023 22:02

I'm guessing they are NT because I don't think I have any reason to think otherwise. They get in well at school, and used to sleep well. It's only been about a year that we've needed to deal with this. They egg each other on to be the most scared of stuff.

OP posts:

Treesinmygarden · 02/08/2023 22:03

You don't have to be NT to have toilet issues!!!

My youngest was just lazy. Was in PJ pants until about 9. Now 20 and never pees the bed 😉

I feel for you - it's hell when you are in the middle of it!!

Charis1503 · 02/08/2023 22:03

No, you havnt broken them ❤️

I'm in therapy as an adult. Under a psychiatrist and a weekly psychologist.

My mum was amazing when we were growing up, she dedicated her time to us - we had fabulous holidays, she helped us with homework, she taught us how to cook. We did well at school and she pushed us to be the best we could be.

What my mum didn't meet was my emotional needs. She pushed me to be Independent before I was ready and I'm still traumatised making phone calls to this day ( had a massive fear as a child and my mum pushed and pushed me to work through it)

What my therapist has helped me to realise is that what I needed as a child was to feel very loved, very secure and very accepted and by being forced to sleep in my own bed it was traumatic, by being made to make phone calls it was traumatic. Being separated was traumatic.

I guess I'm trying to say, to bring up happy and successful adults children first and foremost need to have their emotional needs met - and yes, your children's needs may be a learnt behaviour ( why would they wanna sleep alone if they have never had too) but they are needs just the same.

You can absolutely make some changes with regards to toileting and independent sleeping, but make sure you are filling your kids " emotional" bucket some other way or this could be quite traumatic shift.

You sound like a very lovely, and considerate mamma xx

Original poster

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz · 02/08/2023 22:04

No trauma I can think of. Stable home, family, school etc.

OP posts:

LiloP · 02/08/2023 22:04

@Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz I have a 8 year old
in night nappies and we get medical support. It’s not that unusual, they see lots of children between the ages of 5-15. I would ask for a referral from your GP or school nurse.

the sleeping issue is separate and definitely you can sleep train them at this age!

Original poster

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz · 02/08/2023 22:08

@Charis1503 thanks for your post. I am worried about not helping them enough emotionally. I remember being about the same age as my older child is now and being scared sleeping alone, but I couldn't go see my mum because she would be in bed with one of her boyfriends. I hate to think of my children feeling abandoned and alone like I did, and I'd never have a problem if they came to me with a bad dream but it's this all night every night situation that's a problem. There must be a happy medium surely.

OP posts:

resm · 02/08/2023 22:09

I had similar issues with my son and the best thing I did was contact the ERIC website. A helpline advisor replied by email with advice on how to help with toileting. It put things in perspective for me and where I was going wrong i.e. putting too much stress on my child because they could see I was stressing. Would really recommend checking ERIC out. I found it via NHS site.

BertieBotts · 02/08/2023 22:13

Surely they have broken each other if they are egging each other on!

Have you tried laughing it off? This is what we do if DC are winding each other up and getting themselves in a tizz. Make it silly and turn it into a game, and it's not scary any more.

If that does not work (e.g. ours are a bit worried about spiders at the moment) we do lots of very gentle positive exposure with no pressure, just talking about how great and interesting and nice (spiders, etc) are and lots of praise for small increments of getting involved with the spider.

Reward charts can work really well for potty training (but night training, I think, is about production of a hormone so you just have to wait I believe) and staying in own bed.

Alternatively, you can do smaller steps for these things as well. For example instead of lying in the bed with them, try moving to sitting on the bed but not next to them, or sitting next to the bed but touching them. Then once they are comfortable with/used to that you can sit further away. Once they are used to no direct bodily contact and you not sitting on the bed, you can start to leave for short periods and then increase the time you leave for.

For night time toileting you should try and work out if they are actually peeing in their sleep or if they are doing it between bedtime and falling asleep/between waking up and getting dressed. If they pee when asleep you just have to wait longer. But the weeing in the nappy between bedtime/sleep and sleep/getting up is behavioural and you can develop the behaviour that you want (going to the toilet) by rewarding it and breaking it down into smaller steps.

Lougle · 02/08/2023 22:14

Is your 4 year old insisting that you take her to the toilet, or that you stay with her in the toilet, or that you stay outside the toilet until she's finished?

Either way, you could try working with where she's at and working backwards. For example, go to the toilet and stay with her. Then say "I'll just wait outside the door while you wash your hands". If that's too much, say "I'll wait outside the door while you dry your hands". Then once you've done that a few times, "I'll just stand outside the door while you flush the toilet and wash your hands". Then "I'll stand outside the door while you wipe and flush the toilet/wash your hands." Then "you use the toilet and I'll wait outside the door."

Then, you'll gradually build up the distance. "I'll just wait outside the door." becomes "I'll wait at the stairs" or "I'll wait in the doorway to the lounge".

Wherever you start and whatever you do, the key is to always do exactly what you said you would do, and be prepared to step back in the chain if there's a wobble. That way, you're building the trust that you're there if they need you.

BertieBotts · 02/08/2023 22:15

This is a really good resource that explains the techniques to develop behaviours that you want.

https://www.coursera.org/learn/everyday-parenting/home/welcome

pollykitty · 02/08/2023 22:17

My daughter was not night trained until about 7 I think. We finally resorted to one of those underwear alarms as nothing else worked. I don’t get why the underwear alarms work but they do, took about 3 weeks. She was also a terrible sleeper, abd I finally just put my foot down and said you will sleep in your own bed and go to sleep on your own. Our bedroom is literally a few feet away. I told her she could keep the door open and have a night light. She whined but eventually gave in.

Original poster

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz · 02/08/2023 22:18

@Lougle it's sound advice but we've tried all that. I've been going down the 'gradually moving away' path for the last year and I still have to be right next to them. They will sometimes let me either stand outside the door for toilet or next to the bed for sleeping, but within arm's length. If I try to go any further away we're back to the crying and soiling

OP posts:

hollyhedges · 02/08/2023 22:19

That's very normal. Not easy, but normal and there's no shame in it.

You could sleep train. People do it so you could, I guess.

Personally I've never understood why we expect kids to sleep alone but sleep together as adults.

And re night nappies, again there's no shame in it. My child lacked the hormones until he was in double figures...

It's not easy but don't let anyone let you feel like it's not normal. Even for NT kids

DNLove · 02/08/2023 22:21

Sounds like your mam broke you and you're finding it hard to know the line between being firm and being cruel so you don't repeat what your felt.
I've children of similar age and they'd fight over an old toenail in the ground. I had it first, no it's mine, you weren't playing with it. They're pains in the bum.
As for sleep my daughter is quite happy and always has been to sleep on her own but if she gets a sniff that she can get into my bed she's in every night trying her luck. A firm telling not to come in during night but she can come in the morning for a cuddle works. Obviously not for nightmares or illness.
You're in the trenches right now, or will get better. It's not you, kids are just pains in the ass sometimes.

JennyForeigner · 02/08/2023 22:24

We have a just turned four year old and after a year of fighting to keep him in his bed or from kicking us in the face in ours, we've just... given up. Bought a spare mattress and put it on the floor as family bed.

He wants a lot of stuff but I was completely taken aback by the nakedness of his response to family bed. It means a terrifying amount to him.

Nothing more to say than that really, but it will be a long time before family bed goes again.

Lougle · 02/08/2023 22:24

@Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz I really feel for you. Two of mine have diagnosed ASD and one is on the waiting list. We went through all of that in their earlier years.

Are you happy with their development other than the toileting? Are they anxious about you leaving them in other situations?

muttsandjolts · 02/08/2023 22:25

Growing up there were 6 of us. 2hsd bladder issues, I think it’s quite common but it’s exhausting and teachers are quite intolerant of it (friends had kids with same issues) time will resolve it but society like to blame the parents,

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