To think I've broken my children

[Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz]

They are doing my head in. 7 year old and 4 year old. They refuse to go to the toilet on their own and refuse to sleep on their own. The 7yo will eventually go to the toilet on her own but the 4yo won't and will soil herself if someone doesn't take her. They will not fall asleep alone or sleep unless next to a parent ie in the same bed. And not good sleepers - I've been laying here for two hours waiting for them to fall asleep. Both still in nappies. What the hell have I done to make it so hard?! Both neurotypical.

I would have thought 11 years of savouring it would be more than enough but each to their own!

I don’t understand why you are on this thread when you are not offering any help or solution. Every post I have seen from you is judgemental and putting others down for the way THEY choose to parent THEIR children. If someone wants to lay with their child while they fall asleep and you don’t that’s absolutely fine.

Honestly concerned at how many people are saying these children must have something like psychologically wrong. These are absolutely normal phases that SOME NOT ALL children experience. Not ALL children have to be labelled as something it can simply be a phase.

You can’t possibly know they’re NT at that age.

I have DC the same age, eldest is definitely ND. Both sleep well and both toilet independently.

The sleep and bedtime need to be the norm and ingrained from early on. At these ages I’d use bribery/rewards for the 7 year old. And maybe an expert for the 4 year old!

have a look at Nurturedfirst on Instagram- gentle parenting account by a lovely lady with three kids who’s also a trained professional. Her account gives loads of amazing hints and tips for kids who are worriers plus you can buy additional courses etc at a really reasonable price. I’d honestly avoid reward charts like the plague unless you take time to read about the background of how they work etc, you can unintentionally make behaviour a lot worse if you do them wrong (google operant conditioning). E.g. if you reward a child for doing something they like they can start to associate the reward with the activity and you’ll actually decrease their natural enjoyment of it because they start to think they only do it for the reward.

hope you find something that works x

I found the trouble with anxiety is the more I tried to force my child to sleep, the more anxious we both became. I realise now that she was looking for connection and safety because she felt disconnected and unsafe. School, growing up, change of routine all went to disturb her little world and this would all become more concerning at nighttime, when the business of the day made way for space to feel those fears.
I should have just given in and slept in bed with her rather than getting worked up about setting a bad example. Who cares? Kids love company at night just as adults like sleeping together. So much is happening in their young minds that sleeping with a parent is a safe way to relax and allow those fears to process through sleep. It's only because we are told that children need to sleep alone that we do it.

And then one day when she was 11 she just asked me to stop. And that was ok. Now that her 9 year old sister is going through the same thing I'm much more relaxed about it. She sleeps in with either myself or my husband and I fully expect that one day she will decide that she no longer needs me.

Do what gets you maximum sleep and helps them feel safe. It's not permissive or without boundaries, it's how we are designed as a species.

I had a four year old who wouldn’t go to the loo by herself. I now have a five year old who goes just fine. I didn’t do anything to make it happen (though I did try and she resisted) she just grew up a bit and one day a couple of months ago just got on with it.

I’m currently lying next to her as she also can’t go to sleep by herself.

As for nappies at night, plenty of four year olds aren’t dry and whilst being seven and still in nappies is a little less common, I don’t believe it’s considered medically problematic.

You sound like an amazing mum. And far from breaking your kids, it sounds like you’re doing a great job of supporting them growing up at their own speed.

But yes, you’re absolutely right, it does do your head in.

This sounds beyond the realms of "normal" for NT children.

Are they rational during the day? Are they able to cope with separation then? For example are they in holiday clubs, sports activities etc? If they're rational you can have a conversation about expectations at bedtime and behaviour. If they're not then maybe they're not as NT as you imagine.

I don’t really understand the thing about children sleeping alone. I have no actual issue with my DD climbing into our bed at night. My parents never had an issue with me doing it. And I’m pretty sure my grandparents allowed it too. It just seems normal to me.

In this case it's not really about whether sleeping alone or helping with the toilet is normal/fine/OK because I'm a really big believer in if it works for you then it works, don't worry, because they won't need it forever - it's more the fact that the OP wants to change things, has tried more than one technique to change things and is not able to. That is what points to there being an underlying problem.

Trauma-trained practitioner here. Trauma is defined as experiencing stressful or frightening event either as a one-off or systematically. Trauma is deeply personal. What some people find traumatic may not be so for others. People also respond differently to trauma. Some people experience post-traumatic stress, others post-traumatic growth.
What we don't know are the methods that were used to do telephone training. I can tell you by my own experience with a similar issue that parents can be surprisingly ableist and assume that the child is being difficult. They also often assume that if they push hard enough to practice, then the skill will be learned. This is not so, unfortunately for a lot of kids and adults. As a result, a some parents take a rather dismissive and somewhat aggressive attitude and this is what is traumatic - not making a phone call per se. Parent is the person you trust and rely on and lack of understanding and compassion leads to breaking these fundamental beliefs in the child's mind. The impact can be lifelong. Also, dismissing personal experience of trauma can lead to re-traumatising.

So if you ever come across something similar with your own child, I highly recommend "backward chaining" approach. Someone described it in the thread earlier. It means identifying what is specifically a problem and working to resolve it from the top down. For telephone calls it may be starting from the child dialing the number, then passing to the parent. Then dialing the number, listening to the person pick up the phone and passing to the parent. Then dialing the number, saying "hello, I'm so-and-so, I'm going to give the phone to my mum" etc. etc. With loads of praise and encouragement along the way.

@Charis1503 interesting and moving post. Thank you

My nt son had a couple of years at around 7yo where he was suffering with really bad anxiety. His grandparents dog had died, he had previously had a couple of injuries and his paediatric surgeon was on about him having a second round of surgerys like he had as a toddler. He stopped being able to settle on his own at night and after a conversation with him, it was clear that he was scared to be left on his own because he might die or be injured. He needed my or is dad to lay with him till he fell asleep, which could be midnight. That's what he needed to feel safe. I would have conversations with him about angels protecting him when he is alone, he had learned about God at school so I asked if he wanted to start going to church, he said yes. I don't usually go to church but it is what he needed to help him feel safe and secure. It was very frustrating having to lay in bed for hours with him every night instead of having some down time but his emotional wellbeing was more important. Eventually, he built the confidence to be by himself.
Oh and he also suffered with quite regular nightmares, even before the anxiety.
You need to find out if your dcs are genuinely scared and needing emotional support or if it's learned behaviour. Learned behaviour can hopefully be rectified with star charts, rewards etc, but pushing a child with emotional needs to do something that they are not ready for can be damaging. I appreciate the difficulty with having 2 dcs to deal with but could do and you deal with a child each? Have dcs in separate bedrooms and have a child each and alternate nights with each child, keeping the dcs in there own bed.

Just read my message and want to clarify that the injuries and surgeries are completely unrelated.

I don't think it is unusual for your children to want you to be with them while they fall asleep. There's a lot of cultural pressure to make children sleep alone for no particularly good reason. I'd say that most British 7 year-olds probably would sleep by themselves, but not all of them, and it's reasonable for them to want closeness. I wonder whether splitting them up would help shorten bedtime again. Also your 7 year-old may well need a slightly later bedtime now.

Because it's not "tantrums".... hate that word. Kids are kids and need their adults, parenting doesn't just stop at bed time. It's just a different way of parenting and in my opinion raises children who eventually become far more secure and happy adults, with a closer relationship to their parents.

Hmm, that’s interesting, as I sound like the same kid as you but with the opposite mum! My mum adored me (still does, just talking kid years here!), spent all her time with me, let me sleep in her bed when I needed comfort, didn’t necessarily push me to do anything I wasn’t comfortable with, supported me in life, took me for days out…. I didn’t have trauma, I wasn’t dumped with other people, she was always there for me. She even volunteered to help on school trips so she could make sure I was safe haha!

but I STILL hate phones, I get anxiety about ringing people, I’ll put it off as long as I can. I still struggle with general anxiety, worry about things that don’t need to be worried about (to this degree). I hate waiting for people to come back if they are away, I worry something bad might happen with no real reason to think it…
I don’t feel I cope well with much if I’m honest!

I do think I have some kind of ND, and how I was raised wouldn’t really make a difference either way. Don’t blame your mum, as I’m proof that chances are it wouldn’t have changed how you feel about these things.

therapists are all well and good, but they can’t know everything and a lot of it is just theory and guesswork. And even the bits that are accurate may not even apply to you.

OMG. This sounds heinous!

please update when you know what’s up!

def sounds like a solid mess up somewhere here! Both the bathroom and the bedtime behaviour are unacceptable at those ages. like you said, occasional bad dream - no biggie! Alll the time! Burn you out!

any chance you have a grandma or an aunt that you can have come in for a week? Like you LEAVE. They stay with the kids. Most likely they are fine and just getting away with it with you because they know they can.

good luck!

All 3 of my kids will happily sleep in my bed if allowed. Youngest sleeps with us as we've always done bed sharing until around 3. Eldest is 8 and has always had issues getting to sleep so will try his luck to get in our bed for ages before giving up and going in his own. Half his issue is not being able to wind down and half is being scared of the dark. I was the same at his age. He also night wets occasionally and day wets (he is under urology care and has medication now). 5 year old sleeps alone in his room most of the time, occasionally wants in with us or his brother. When their dad works late nights they all try their luck and sometimes I'll give in and have all three kids in my bed. It's horrific and uncomfortable so you must be feeling suffocated if they can't go to toilet or bed on their own. I would take the nappies off, get a couple of waterproof sheets and if they wet the bed, keep a note of how often and when it happens. Make sure they double void before going to bed, so do a pee then wash hands then do another pee, wash hands then bed. I think the reliance on nappies will make them think they actually need them. If there's still issues I would contact your GP for advice.

Regarding the nappies at night some kids are later than others, but at 7 the doctor can give medication to help train the bladder to go through the night. My son is 5 and still in night pants the nurse told me to come back when he is 6 if he is till needing them.
and my 5 and almost 4 year old still need me to sleep next to them but that’s because that’s what we have done. I guess if it is stressing you out that much you should look at methods to try and get them settled in their own room, maybe decorate of for them. Good luck momma

Can you try the gradual retreat method? So maybe Snuggle them for abit, then say stay upstairs but in your room, with the light on...make noises every so often so they know you're there.I think it's a case of gradually conditioning them.Or would letting them sleep together in your bed help? Do they get enough attention and quality time with you during the day? Just because if their 'attention bucket' isn't full that might be why they are clinging to you wanting more.

Oh and my 6.5yo is still in pullups...its not abnormal at night at 7....frustrating, but not abnormal.People just don't talk about it much.

My 6 year old, well adjusted, confident, good at school etc still requires her dad or I to lie on her floor whilst she falls asleep. No problems with it as I know she will grow out of it. Has a fear of Some things too. A year ago wouldn’t go to the loo, eat at the table in restaurants, wouldn’t leave me. She’s grown out of it now. Always had lots of love, support and a stable life. I think it’s part of growing up and one day won’t want you any more in the bed/on the floor. Don’t beat yourself up- this parenting malarkey is tough!!