Page 2 | To think I've broken my children

Takemeawayy · 02/08/2023 22:30

One of the best things I have purchased for my 4 year old is a yoto player. I read her a book, give her a kiss and cuddle and turn the light out. She can then pick a story card to listen to if she stays in bed and she will fall asleep listening to the story. It’s fantastic!
we don’t have any issues with nappies but have been trying to encourage her to wipe her own bum by telling her that the teacher won’t do it when she starts school in September so she needs to learn and be a big girl.

CockSpadget · 02/08/2023 22:31

The thing I’ve took from your post is the “egging each other on” part. I think that’s your main problem if they were only children this “phase” would just pass quick, but they are competing for the attention, is there any way of separating them at bed time? Dad takes one, you take the other?

Iwasafool · 02/08/2023 22:32

LiloP · 02/08/2023 22:04

@Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz I have a 8 year old
in night nappies and we get medical support. It’s not that unusual, they see lots of children between the ages of 5-15. I would ask for a referral from your GP or school nurse.

the sleeping issue is separate and definitely you can sleep train them at this age!

Not being dry at night at 7 or 8 really isn't unusual. Kids vary. One of mine slept like the dead and was just unable to recognise the symptoms.

They do need to be sleeping without you, I'd focus on that.

Original poster

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz · 02/08/2023 22:35

@CockSpadget we actually put them together in the same room so that they would be less scared, and it worked brilliantly for a couple of months but now it's no good at all. The little one actually sleeps really well once she falls asleep (glued to me) but the big one really struggles... After 2.5 hours I have just given in and let her go sleep in bed with her dad.

OP posts:

chickbean · 02/08/2023 22:35

Can't really help with the sleep thing, but Dr Sagie's bedwetting alarm saved me. My boys were still wet into secondary school. Medication and enuresis clinic alarm didn't help. Finally invested in Dr Sagie. Older DS took a couple of months, younger DS a week. Seemed a lot of money, but wished I'd known about it years before. Passed it on to a friend and it also worked for her two boys.

greenthumb13 · 02/08/2023 22:38

Lougle · 02/08/2023 22:14

Is your 4 year old insisting that you take her to the toilet, or that you stay with her in the toilet, or that you stay outside the toilet until she's finished?

Either way, you could try working with where she's at and working backwards. For example, go to the toilet and stay with her. Then say "I'll just wait outside the door while you wash your hands". If that's too much, say "I'll wait outside the door while you dry your hands". Then once you've done that a few times, "I'll just stand outside the door while you flush the toilet and wash your hands". Then "I'll stand outside the door while you wipe and flush the toilet/wash your hands." Then "you use the toilet and I'll wait outside the door."

Then, you'll gradually build up the distance. "I'll just wait outside the door." becomes "I'll wait at the stairs" or "I'll wait in the doorway to the lounge".

Wherever you start and whatever you do, the key is to always do exactly what you said you would do, and be prepared to step back in the chain if there's a wobble. That way, you're building the trust that you're there if they need you.

Yes this exactly. Also "oh crap" potty training was a really good book. Both of mine night trained at 3 with this system which is really gentle and goes at the child's speed

ParisP · 02/08/2023 22:43

They all get there in the end, please don’t worry.

underneaththeash · 02/08/2023 22:44

Cakeandcoffee93 · 02/08/2023 21:57

Hi op,
are they both in school/ nursery?
i say get them checked out if they are wetting the bed- could be a UTI.
don’t blame yourself, I’m super soft with my dd.
she’s still got her dummy and she’s four soon. We only mastered nappies and potties because of nursery.
I would come up with a reward system, work really hard to establish them going to the toilet on their own with door open,
as for sleeping, it won’t last, read a book at night and sing a song, get a night light, then sleep time,
id do all of this now during the summer. Run them ragged during the day, even tho it’s raining get out in wellies etc. hot bath after and early night.
Make sure they’ve weed before bed etc
Youve not ruined them at all.

Errmm.

underneaththeash · 02/08/2023 22:45

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz · 02/08/2023 21:53

They are doing my head in. 7 year old and 4 year old. They refuse to go to the toilet on their own and refuse to sleep on their own. The 7yo will eventually go to the toilet on her own but the 4yo won't and will soil herself if someone doesn't take her. They will not fall asleep alone or sleep unless next to a parent ie in the same bed. And not good sleepers - I've been laying here for two hours waiting for them to fall asleep. Both still in nappies. What the hell have I done to make it so hard?! Both neurotypical.

Well, you just don't do it!
You say it's time to go to bed and put them to bed and when they get up, you put them back to bed.

CockSpadget · 02/08/2023 22:45

@Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz yeah, I would try them apart again, especially if the youngest is sleeping well when she does go off, you don’t want her being disturbed and getting out of that routine. As for your 7 year old, it is a common age for worries and being scared of things, I used to lay awake worrying about bloody nuclear war for hours when I was that age (thanks Reagan and Gorbochov) so I’d probably gradually work on sleep training her.

backoffbuster · 02/08/2023 22:47

Oh gosh it’s so hard. Mine went through a similar sleeping phase at the same age. It got better by the time the youngest was 5 and able to sit up and read to himself after he had had stories from me. Of course that mean that he was then sat up reading until late, but at least it was by himself and then he stayed asleep once he was asleep. They both still have times when they want me to lie down next to them, but maybe only once a month. I also found that letting them listen to audio books helped me to escape their room more easily!

BertieBotts · 02/08/2023 22:47

Honestly, when you get to the point that you've tried all the standard advice and it's not working, and you've waited six months and then tried all the standard advice again and now it's well past the normal expected time for these issues to have resolves, that is the time to go and ask for a professional opinion to investigate physical causes, ND etc. And take a list of everything you've tried and all the timelines, so you don't get fobbed off with the standard advice yet again.

No, it's not always ND, but I feel like it saves a lot of time and a lot of stress if that is just the blanket next step after trying everything, waiting, trying everything again.

Otherwise what is there left to do? You basically end up stressing yourself into crap parenting like shouting/threatening which you know won't help and might even make things worse. Or you stress yourself into waiting even longer and then by the time you do say hmm yeah I think there could be an issue there's a huge waiting list and now you have even longer to wait.

Thegrumpycup · 02/08/2023 22:49

Both of mine went through a weird stage around 7YO of being ridiculously anxious about everything. They would wake in the night and come into our room repeatedly. Couldn't even put the bins out without them coming with etc. With my eldest, this coincided with lock down and a family bereavement, so it was put down to that. But then the youngest was going similar two years later around the same age.

I will say now though that both have since been diagnosed as autistic.

Okaaaay · 02/08/2023 22:49

Parenting is brutal OP. No advice but solidarity. My 6 year old was trained not to come into my bed every night, my 3 year old wasn’t. Now, one of them or both of them are in by the end of the night. I’m tired, it’s hard to break and get the balance between love / support and discipline / self-soothing.

Rainallnight · 02/08/2023 22:57

Oh OP, I am exactly the same. I just take it for granted that this is my life so I’m a bit taken aback by some of the reactions on this thread

Smileatthesmallthings · 02/08/2023 23:09

My 6.5yo still has one of us lying in with him to go to sleep every night. He had a couple of days last week where we snuggled then I left and he went to sleep by himself with his yoto on, but after a couple of nights the novelty wore off I think and he wanted cuddles again. Sometimes it takes 20mins and sometimes an hour and a half and there's no telling which it'll be so I know it's hard.

With the night nappies my boy was out of them because they had none left in the shop for first lockdown so he was a few months past 3. I took him to the toilet when I went up at about 10:30, and I still have to do that now as he doesn't wake otherwise. Thankfully I can carry him there, he wees and then I can carry him back and pop him into bed but I think that's just a long established routine. I was hoping he'd start to wake automatically around that time and go himself but if I don't take him he still wets the bed.

Must be tricky with 2 kids that need you all the time, but I don't think you've broken them.

Mystery2345 · 02/08/2023 23:15

How about inviting a friend of your 7 year old over for a sleepover? I strongly suspect that might change things rapidly, if your 7 year old is up for having a friend stay.

Sittingonasale · 02/08/2023 23:17

My eldest was wetting the bed until quite late 8/9 but no other issues and she's now 13 with no problems. dd2 and ds 1 had no issues at all with bedwetting.
dS1 is now 9 and has been through a fearful stage this year before he sleeps. He slept on my floor (his choice) for a long time and really struggles to sleep on his own which is difficult as my other two are pre teen/teen girls (13,11) so he doesn't share a room with anyone.
He's had a fairly difficult time at school making friends ect and we're moving so it's a bit of a turbulent time but he's fine in the day.
He now wants a dog who can sleep in his room with him. 😅

OsirisservesAnubis · 02/08/2023 23:18

We had this. Also 7&4.

We just gave in. Had 2 double beds (master room and spare room) and for several weeks one adult slept with one child. We alternated on which child we each had.

It broke the cycle. We then started sitting in their room after story time until they fell asleep with an understanding that if they woke up they could climb in to our bed, no questions asked (which happened most nights for several weeks).

Once they felt safe and secure that they could sleep with us whenever they wanted, they no longer needed to.

Now, if we want them to actually go to sleep quickly we stay in their room (on a chair) until they are asleep but they can cope well with being left to go to sleep alone, it just takes longer. I'd say 13 nights out of 14 they stay in their own beds all night and 6 nights out of 7 go to sleep without us being in the room.

NoSquirrels · 02/08/2023 23:21

Night-time nappies are a non-issue.

Your 7-year-old is reacting to the attention your 4-year-old gets because of her fears.

That doesn’t make it any easier necessarily but it’s worthwhile to recognise that. If you can give your 7-year-old enough special attention to ‘fill her bucket’ so she doesn’t need to compete with her sister at bedtime that could help.

Are you a lone parent to them?

StarryNightAddict · 03/08/2023 00:04

Mystery2345 · 02/08/2023 23:15

How about inviting a friend of your 7 year old over for a sleepover? I strongly suspect that might change things rapidly, if your 7 year old is up for having a friend stay.

Don’t take this shit advice. Your 7yo isn’t doing it on purpose.

My youngest was a nightmare to toilet train. He was about 7 for day time and a bit older for night time. He is NT and now 14. Kids develop at different paces and while it’s frustrating, they are still young and still inside the window of normal development.

SophieIsHereToday · 03/08/2023 00:10

DNLove · 02/08/2023 22:21

Sounds like your mam broke you and you're finding it hard to know the line between being firm and being cruel so you don't repeat what your felt.
I've children of similar age and they'd fight over an old toenail in the ground. I had it first, no it's mine, you weren't playing with it. They're pains in the bum.
As for sleep my daughter is quite happy and always has been to sleep on her own but if she gets a sniff that she can get into my bed she's in every night trying her luck. A firm telling not to come in during night but she can come in the morning for a cuddle works. Obviously not for nightmares or illness.
You're in the trenches right now, or will get better. It's not you, kids are just pains in the ass sometimes.

This is quite insightful and I think you have a point.

How do you think she would find the line? To learn what is appropriate ; not cruel but firm enough

That's tricky to learn as an adult

femfemlicious · 03/08/2023 00:28

Oh dear😭

continentallentil · 03/08/2023 00:48

Charis1503 · 02/08/2023 22:03

No, you havnt broken them ❤️

I'm in therapy as an adult. Under a psychiatrist and a weekly psychologist.

My mum was amazing when we were growing up, she dedicated her time to us - we had fabulous holidays, she helped us with homework, she taught us how to cook. We did well at school and she pushed us to be the best we could be.

What my mum didn't meet was my emotional needs. She pushed me to be Independent before I was ready and I'm still traumatised making phone calls to this day ( had a massive fear as a child and my mum pushed and pushed me to work through it)

What my therapist has helped me to realise is that what I needed as a child was to feel very loved, very secure and very accepted and by being forced to sleep in my own bed it was traumatic, by being made to make phone calls it was traumatic. Being separated was traumatic.

I guess I'm trying to say, to bring up happy and successful adults children first and foremost need to have their emotional needs met - and yes, your children's needs may be a learnt behaviour ( why would they wanna sleep alone if they have never had too) but they are needs just the same.

You can absolutely make some changes with regards to toileting and independent sleeping, but make sure you are filling your kids " emotional" bucket some other way or this could be quite traumatic shift.

You sound like a very lovely, and considerate mamma xx

You were traumatised because your mum pushed you to use the phone before you felt ready and you were made to sleep in your own bed?

Isn’t trauma defined as a response to an extremely distressing event like abuse, disaster or a serious crime?

I’m not suggesting these things couldn’t have had an impact on you, but I am not sure you can call it trauma unless there was something else going on.

Sittingonasale · 03/08/2023 00:57

continentallentil · 03/08/2023 00:48

You were traumatised because your mum pushed you to use the phone before you felt ready and you were made to sleep in your own bed?

Isn’t trauma defined as a response to an extremely distressing event like abuse, disaster or a serious crime?

I’m not suggesting these things couldn’t have had an impact on you, but I am not sure you can call it trauma unless there was something else going on.

Show quote history

Agree, people should be careful with this term and not use it casually.
I did suffer trauma through assault, abuse in different forms, serious illness and other nasty events. I have never actually had therapy. I can't afford it and the waiting lists on the NHS are endless. I'm on some long term antidepressants which keep my head above water.