To think I've broken my children

[Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz]

They are doing my head in. 7 year old and 4 year old. They refuse to go to the toilet on their own and refuse to sleep on their own. The 7yo will eventually go to the toilet on her own but the 4yo won't and will soil herself if someone doesn't take her. They will not fall asleep alone or sleep unless next to a parent ie in the same bed. And not good sleepers - I've been laying here for two hours waiting for them to fall asleep. Both still in nappies. What the hell have I done to make it so hard?! Both neurotypical.

You need to start teaching them that you matter as well, that you exist in a way that isn't just pandering to them.

I'd put to bed and start leaving and coming back later. First just go to the toilet and when you come back tell them how well they did not making a fuss. Don't say they were brave or anything that reinforces that being in bed is scary. A few nights later you extend the time away, tell them you need to do the dishes or laundry but you'll come back later. Do go back.

Over time they'll fall asleep while waiting.

They'll learn

This book has some useful strategies in it. Helping your child with fears and worries. It's useful to know what they are worried about and then you can empathise. For example let's say your 4 year old is worried because she thinks she might get flushed down the toilet. You can say 'I would be worried too if I thought I was going to get flushed down the toilet'. It has a magical effect actually.

There's also some useful worksheets for achieving what you want gradually. For me sleep was always the priority because I do not sleep with my children in bed with me. I know some people do but I needed to sort it out for my own sanity (and your own sanity is paramount for looking after everyone else).

I agree. I don't think pandering to them is helpful. For one thing, you're telling your children that mum doesn't matter and she'll lie there with you until you fall asleep.... nomatter what else she could be doing with that time. Secondly, if it's taking them hours to fall asleep then they're not going to be getting enough sleep and that's no good for them anyway.

I'd tackle the sleep issue first. You'll have to be firm, reward charts may be a good idea as will going in periodically to check on them but they're old enough to understand that it's bedtime and mum needs to do something downstairs or whatever. It'll take consistency and not giving in but it will work.

You've got a range of issues here for different aged children so they need to be tackled differently.

Firstly, the 4 year old is still young enough to be struggling with separation anxiety or some sort of fear around toileting. My ds watched a cartoon with a scary sea creature coming out of a toilet and was petrified to be alone in a bathroom for well over a year. Maybe something like that is going on with her. The only way she will get over it is by you going too and making her feel safe. The more you try to refuse or send her alone the bigger deal it will become. The 7 year old is probably copying for attention.

Now for the nights. Are they in the same room? What happens when you say goodnight and leave the room? Do they cry? Get out of bed? You need to just go back in, put them back in bed, a quick reassuring hug and goodnight then walk out . And repeat a million times if necessary, every night until they get the message that you will be leaving them while they are awake and that they are safe. They are both old enough to go to sleep alone.

Night wetting is normal for some kids. One of mine ended up with medication until age 14 when the hormones kicked in. Get pull up bed pants rather than nappies, you can even get washable bed pants.

Do you put them both to bed at the same time? The little one should go to bed earlier. Are they both getting enough exercise before bedtime? Maybe think of taking them swimming/trampoling/park a few evenings per week to get them exhausted before bathtime/bedtime.

Good luck OP x

You need them to know that what they're doing is distressing to you, or they will grow up reliant.

Could you lean into it and have a family bedroom for a few years then everyone gets more sleep?

I second this. Are you sure they are both tired enough? My five year old is very active, but even with hours of messing in a pool on holiday, she only needs about nine hours a night, ten at most.

Google 'excuse me' sleep method.

It's great for older anxious children who should be sleeping by themselves.

You do your normal bedtime routine and instead of saying goodnight. You say

"Excuse me while I just go to the toilet"

(Or some other excuse to leave the room, make a call, let the dog out, tell daddy something)

You leave for a few minutes then return. You stay for a few minutes and again excuse yourself, repeating the process for longer each time.

For some children the thought of being left for the night is a lot to cope with. If they think it's just short times and know you'll come back soon, they can relax enough to fall asleep. Instead of working themselves up into a state where falling asleep takes forever as they are so frightened.

I found also found a marble jar worked wonders when mine were small. Just an old jar which they decorated and a bag of fancy gems or marbles. Collect a marble for staying in bed all night. Pop it in the jar. When they had 7 marbles they chose a treat. It worked better than a sticker chart. It was the plonk of the marble hitting the jar that gave them such satisfaction.

I’m a mom of 3 7,4,1 my 4 year old I have to sit with at the toilet his only just gone into his bed if t oldest is winding her up then you need to come down on them a bit

Haven't read the thread but posting for solidarity. My 5 year old isn't in nappies but seems to have hit a huge regression since May half term. He has a 3 year old brother who is mostly toilet trained but has refuses to not wear nappies going out. They're both being intensely clingy and demanding right now but also ridiculously wilful and often poorly behaved.

Not being thingy but I've also been a loving, nurturing mum. I feel awful about the trajectory they are on right now, it's extremely exhausting, demotivating and depressing. We also have an older DD and she is getting hardly any of our attention at the moment as she is so well behaved.

I suspect my 5 year old may be ND but what if I'm just an awful parent?

Seriously? Do you not speak to other people? I know of only one or two families where this happened and in every one (apart from ND children) it has been the clear result of permissive and over indulgent parenting and an inability to be firm and set perfectly reasonable boundaries. I have no idea why people make life so hard for themselves

@Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Lack of sleep is horrible; I feel for you.
Sorry if it has been mentioned but have you tried natural remedies? If not, have a look at these:

Badger Night Night Balm Certified Organic Calming Sweet Dream Balm For Kids 21g https://amzn.eu/d/8s7LILo

Natures Aid Bed Time Mini Drops for Children 3 Months - 5 Years, 50ml https://amzn.eu/d/8lfhPFb

Kids Magnesium Chewable 90 Tablets (V) for Anxiety, Sleep, Ticks. Vegan Magnesium Citrate Sleep Aid for Kids. Tasty Magnesium for Kids - Tablets (not Gummies) Made in The UK by Health4All https://amzn.eu/d/5igAEem

Also, are they taking naps during the day? If they are, I recommend they stop and this way they will get tired and hopefully sleep quickly at bedtime.

Good luck.

I disagree.
my DD 7 loves me or DH laying next to her as she drops off to sleep. We love giving her that security at bedtime.
She is confident, well behaved and loved. We are just aware that in the not too distant future this will change and we want to give her as much love as possible when she is young.

Oh right, yes it must be that I have limited the amount of love I've given my children. What a smug post 🙄

Do they share a room? Would having each other be enough, rather than you? How about a Yoto. Build it up as a really big thing getting a Yoto means you listen to it falling asleep rather than mummy stay etc

You haven't broken them. How do I know? Because I have a 9 year old who still won't go to sleep alone and spends about 75% of nights on a camp bed in our room, and a 4 year old who goes to sleep independently (doesn't even want tucking inmost nights) and stays asleep till morning. What did I do differently with the second one? Absolutely nothing! They just came that way and while I'm still working on resolving the sleep thing, I'm not beating myself up about it,

One thing to think about, are they watching things on YouTube/playing computer games that are causing them to be anxious? So much of the stuff aimed at kids is kind of joke scary, but if you have a very imaginative child what's funny in the daytime grows into real scary thoughts at night time.

It wasn’t said with smugness, it was offering a different perspective on staying with your child until they nod off. It doesn’t as you suggest equate to ‘indulgent’ or ‘permissive’ parenting without boundaries. It’s just an opportunity to give them what they want at bed time.

If you took it as smug perhaps it’s because it challenged your views and that can be uncomfortable. Especially if part of you feels guilty for prioritising your needs over those of your child.

I'm going to say they don't sound NT to me 🤷‍♀️ not just because of the toileting issues, but the sleep things too.

You say there aren't any signs they're ND... the problems you're having are the signs.

My DS wore night nappies until 7 when he started taking medication. From around 10 he cut down very gradually on the medication and by the time he was in secondary school was dry at night. If a 7 year old in night nappies time to see a doctor.

Yes, simply wracked with guilt that I didn't spend hours every evening lying down beside my child. How will I and they over get over it 🙄

If you do reward charts for sleeping in own bed, ensure they know they know they come to you if they feel unwell/really need you. In fact I wouldn't do it all for the 4 year old (maybe for the going to sleep part at thr start of the night). 7 year old may need some help with night time end wetting, it's hormonal so should happened eventually but maybe see if GP can help. Make sure they are ready for sleep at bed time - lots of physical activity during the day. Hope it gets easier soon, these kids are set to try us.

This whole 'lying next to children while they fall asleep' sounds like absolute insanity to me. I cannot understand why people pander to it. I'd rather choose a couple of nights of tantrums over doing that, no question.

Aww... Don't worry OP!!

My oldest wasn't dry at night til around that age. It'll happen soon. Youngest got it at 2.5! They r all different :)

We bribed my oldest to poo on his own! Each time gained him a reward (something from the pound shop, we had a whole basket of tat! But it worked!) Youngest was happy to use the toilet from before oldest was out of nighttime pull-ups!

Both mine are well out of pullups now and using the toilet just fine on their own!! Have been several years and it all feels a a thing of the past! They'll get there!

With bedtime (mine are 11 and 9!), while they'd be ok on their own after a few nights, I enjoy sitting and chatting with them before bed, and when the lights are out I like sitting there for a bit before they fall asleep! And they complain if they hear me disappear!! I'm sure in a year or two the oldest will kick me out! But for now he likes me being there! Savour it while you have it! It'll b gone soon enough ,💐