To think I've broken my children

[Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz]

They are doing my head in. 7 year old and 4 year old. They refuse to go to the toilet on their own and refuse to sleep on their own. The 7yo will eventually go to the toilet on her own but the 4yo won't and will soil herself if someone doesn't take her. They will not fall asleep alone or sleep unless next to a parent ie in the same bed. And not good sleepers - I've been laying here for two hours waiting for them to fall asleep. Both still in nappies. What the hell have I done to make it so hard?! Both neurotypical.

Sounds like you’ve been over compensating from your own childhood experiences.
Are you a worrier generally? I know so many parents who are and it passes down to the kids extremely easily. The kids are then scared and frightened of normal things or can’t cope with being more independent away from mum.
Nkt being able to go to the toilet alone at 7 is not normal and to me signifies really high anxiety.
Night nappies at 7 isn’t unusual though.
Sleeping together isn’t a problem if all parties are happy and it’s working- but clearly it’s not and it’s about more than just the sleep- they arnt moving towards the independence that’s typical / expected for their age.
what is your parenting style like? Are you soft / firm, do you set boundaries and stick to them? Are you consistent? Do they have stability day to day? Do they have you around all the time when it at school? So they have the same routines every day?

you have no reason to think they are ND and this hasn’t always happened and so it may be perpetuated by you doing what they want.

have you tried being really firm. Explaining to them they use the toilet in the day time and if they don’t they will lose a prevelidge (as it is a choice to soil themselves) and really truly following through.

you mention you give in and send one through to dad.

watch super nanny. Getting up in the night has to be boring. Ie not spoken to and returned to bed every single time.

the evening is your down time at this age and they need to stop this and actually go to bed to get good quality sleep to cope with the next day.

I think you need to set hard and fast rules and stick to it. At the moment they are telling you what to do. So they cry. So what! You can’t complain about this if you aren’t willing to take firm action

My dd had trouble sleeping alone for ages. I used to have to lie with her every evening until she fell asleep. I think it was all through primary school. She did eventually grow out of it!!

Would it be worth a try at encouraging your 7 year old to be that little bit more independent, by saying they are getting to the age, where friends, at some point in the future, will invite them for a sleepover?
Or something along those lines?

Hi, my son was wetting the bed at night, we got this alarm mat to put on the bed under him, so it went off when wet. It took maybe 6 weeks (which is what it said it'd take) but he no longer wets the bed. Might be worth taking a look. We also reduced drinks the last hr before bed and made sure he weed right before bed. If you're in the UK check out bowel and bladder UK.

Put a yoto/tonies story on for them to listen to in bed.

Hi OP, I have 6yo and 2yo and fully acknowledge it's hard!

My 6 yo was day potty trained at 3 but has literally only just stopped night nappies this past week. He was addicted to his bedtime drink of milk for many years and it was so soothing to him and made for an easy night in every other way (great sleeper) that I just bought him the big kids night pants from Aldi and let him decide for himself when he was ready to stop.

We had sleepovers both at ours and at a friend's place where he just unashamedly announced "I still wear nappies at night because I love milk!" and there was no shame from himself or anyone else - our friends are lovely! :)

But this holiday we pushed him more, we were gifted a beeping pants alarm by some other kind friends (this one https://dri-sleeper.uk/products/dri-sleeper-eclipse-wireless-bedwetting-alarm - no wires to tangle up!) and he's given up his bedtime cup of milk and been dry the past several nights without the beeper being used - he's just learnt it.

I don't believe in shaming or making a fuss, I think it's great to explain pros and cons but not make them wrong if they just are not ready.

One thing that did jump out at me though is that he only ever wets his nappy, never poops - when you say they "soil", do you mean the 7 yo poops in her nappy? Because that sounds like it might be a cause for concern, and perhaps further research to rule out any problems.

Wish you all the best, and out of the tunnel soon and back into your own bed!

It sounds horrific. I’d separate them and sleep train like mad.

Is the seven year old able to wake to go to the loo, but chooses not to, so you’ve got them back in nappies for convenience?

Chooses not to get up, I mean.

I'm sorry, probably against the grain here, but with the way both children are acting they can get most of what they want. Throw away the nappies for both, if you're consistent they'll learn, but you have to stick to your plan.

As another poster said, supernanny is fantastic for sleep training. This is hard but you have to make it emotionless and consistent and the changes happen fast

My NY daughter was also still in nighttime pull-ups til at least 6. Had been daytime dry for years. I think by then it was a habit as much as anything, her body was just used to urinating at nighttime.
I was worrying too, and then someone suggested ‘wet stop’ to me, hadn’t heard of it. It’s essentially a tiny sensor you clip to their knickers at night which also clips a vibrator-alarm to their pj neckline. it goes off when it senses wetness, you dash in and take them to the toilet. It trains the body to wake up when it needs to go. I think we had about three nights when it went, and then she slept through, dry. Worked a miracle for us!
tip - we already used plastic under sheets, and I read online advice about layering for these first few days to save you work in the night - you just strip off the wet sheet and under sheet, revealing dry sheet with plastic under sheet underneath. Worry about laundry in the morning. So that’s tip 1.
tip 2, I put her in knickers, with the sensor clipped on, but I also put the pull up on over the top. She’ll still feel wet as the knickers will be wet, and the sensor will stay go off, but the bed won’t get wet.

good luck if you try it!

Have you tried the stern approach of where you say "it's bedtime" have a story, cuddle and kiss, say night night, tuck in, walk out. When they cry or come out, first few times, cuddle and tuck back in, then limit interaction to just putting back in bed.
It could take a while to begin.but if you back down and let them sleep on your bed or with adult, they've essentially won and will know of they persist, they get their way. It's a battle of wills. Stay strong, it will get better but could take a few days maybe longer.
Even rewards for sleeping in own bed with no fuss, day out, new teddy, movie night etc.

The night time nappies is definitely still fairly common at 7. My youngest was in them until at least 8 and then still wet the bed a lot up until about 10. The alarm seemed to help a lot at that age. I did a lot of Co sleeping too when they were younger. It's only now they are much older they consistently always sleep through. Story cds helped as they weren't pressured to fall asleep when I left they were just told to listen to the story and they normally fell asleep eventually

I'm not too worried about the nappies but my 7yo would like to get out of them so we'll try one of those alarms this holidays (thanks v much for the recommendations)

She also does want to have sleepovers with her friends but for now still thinks I can sleep in the room with them. Once she gets it through her head that I'm not going to, hopefully it'll encourage her.

I'm feeling calmer this morning, after 7yo finally feel asleep at 11.30pm last night! We've talked and we're going to make some rules together and a reward chart for each of them. Fingers crossed!

To answer the question about soiling, not in nappies. It's just the 4yo who will poo pants during the day if we are not available to take her to the toilet

Nappies - forget this, not an issue - deal with everything else first.

and one thing at a time. You have to get them to the loo on their own AND sleeping on their own - 4 wholly separate and different tasks, so definitely one at a time

At risk of some backlash here but I too often find that parents are just being too soft with this kind of thing. There’s too much namby pamby parenting going on and it visibly creates problems. We all crumble at times, we all give in at times but you need to be so consistent and firm.

My mum was a namby pamby parenter and she suffered severe sleep deprivation because she just let me and my siblings get into bed with her every night for ease. I vowed never to do it with my children unless they were poorly etc. I’ve always had sleep time as separate and your own space. It can be hard through some phases but so many of you parents set yourself up for these stressful situations by being complete wet blankets about it all.

The bed time wetting situation isn’t unusual and it’s true that some children just aren’t ready to be dry through the night but with the way you’ve allowed certain behaviours- it may be hard to unpick what is purely a genuine inability to stay dry or an emotional tactic to keep you babying your 7 year old.

Anything that may have traumatized DC, even if it does not seem like a trauma? A house move, something that has been said or shown, etc. My DC went through an awful stage and it turns out an older ‘friend’ had said some scary things that had badly frightened them.

Lots of children are in nappies at 7. That is not a problem.
They can sleep alone or together in the same room. You just need to be firm about it and put up with a few days of difficult evenings. Returning to bed and ignoring. They are both old enough to understand. You are in charge, you really are but at the moment they are.

My 7 (8 in a couple of months) and 6 year olds need someone at least in the room, ideally lying beside them, to sleep too. I thought it was normal and everyone did it. 😅

@muttsandjolts It’s not that teachers are ‘intolerant’ of it, it’s literally that we do not have the time or resources to dedicate to one child who needs help etc in the loo while the other 29 5 year olds are waiting for us! I think that’s really unfair to label teachers as intolerant. It’s not in our job description to toilet train.

You haven't broken your children.

I'm many other cultures children of these age would share rooms with parents/other siblings. They still grow up capable of independent sleep. However, if it's not working for you, you are the parent and can change it. Lots of different approaches, pick one that works for you. Sticker chart? You just need to be really calm and consistent, they are old enough to explain to, and and little reward (sticker onthe chart or similar) when they do well with it.

My eldest still wanted taking to be toilet at that age. Particularly for poos - she liked to have someone read a story to her as she found them tricky. It was never an issue at preschool - because the loo was right next to the classroom that didn't feel as alone to her as going upstairs and she just didn't poo at school. She started taking herself with confidence when shewas 5. I never considered it to be a big deal if I'm honest.

Nappies at night is not a bit deal, and you've been given lots of suggestions. Again, it's not a problem! But as the parent if you think it's time for a change that is your choice. Pick a method you are happy with (you've been given several suggestions on this thread) and just be consistent and patient.

You're never going to break your children by being loving. Just pair it with calm, consistent boundaries that you adapt when you think its time.
(No, this is not always easy, and yes, I fall short of this! But just keep trying)

My child is only 2 so a bit different. However, he was sleeping in our bed every night and disturbing our sleep, we kept trying to get him in his own bed and it just seemed to get worse. Eventually gave up and just left him to sleep in there without trying to move him back. After a couple of months he just decided to start sleeping in his bed alone.
They may be picking up on your stress and that is making them want to be closer to you. I would try just going with the flow for a bit and give it time for them to want the independance themselves.

i have similar age kids although my 4y just turned 5 and my 6yo is about to be 7. We have been through this exact same phase and the way we’ve dealt with it is to validate their feelings of fear. We talk a lot about how our house is a safe place, we went into the bathroom with them and turned all the lights out and made it fun to show them there’s nothing to fear. We have some led lights in their bedroom that aren’t light enough to keep them awake but light enough that they feel safe with them on. At night we also used to lay with them until they fell asleep and eventually we now have a steady routine of them going to sleep alone and although they do still have the odd day where they might ask me to go with them to the bathroom I just don’t make a fuss of it now and just go and hover or say il be there in a moment and hover at the door. I read that we should validate those fears of monsters etc rather than dismiss them as they can’t fully understand that monsters aren’t real. Hope this helps. It does get better with consistency.

Sticker charts might help, if they get a sticker every day for seven days for sleeping in own beds then they get a prize? I've done similar for my son before, for a different issue.