Feeling a bit 'hmm' at these work rules...

[pickalilly1441]

Trying to be vague if I can, so please excuse any missing info!

Started a new job last year and absolutely loving it. I work in an off-shoot branch of a massive institution, where it's all very chilled out and relaxed (but we still work hard!) I am mid twenties, like most of our staff (bar the managers and some higher ups) and we all get on really, really well. My team works the closest with one other specific team, who are a bit younger (early to mid twenties). Since we're the same age and we work together the most, we've had parties, nights out, and dinners together. I saw no issue with this, though did always query why my manager didn't want to go but thought nothing of it, they're a parent and a commuter so appreciate nights out might not be their cup of tea. I'd really hate for them to feel left out or jealous, and I don't necessarily think this is the case because we do invite them every single time.

In a recent 1-1 we got chatting about my plans for an upcoming weekend, and when I mentioned I'd be going out with the other team, they cut the meeting short and asked me back into the office. They then had a sit down with our team and expressed concern over professional boundaries, appropriate behaviour etc. They have explicitly said that they do not think we should interact the way we do with the other team outside of work. Other members of my team were not happy with this, and said as much.

I see our manager's point; there have been occasions where drunken snogs, a barmy outside the kebab shop at 2am etc has come up at work, though it's always been laughed off and all is forgiven. If something more serious did happen, there is the potential that it would affect two teams rather than one.

There is also the issue of one of my colleagues being so infatuated with a member of the other team that HR actually had to get involved, though seemingly they are behaving in a more restrained, appropriate way now (hard to tell, I don't speak to them as much) - I see why my manager would be keen to avoid a repeat of this, but the blanket punishment method didn't work in primary school, and surely doesn't work now we are adults? Unsure how to unpick this finer detail in all honesty, as I do recognise it is a problem.

However, I also see my own side (obviously) and that of the other team, who were told the same thing by my manager, though not their own. They/we are of the opinion that what goes on outside of work hours is, within reason, our own business and cannot be dictated by managers, higher ups etc. I had a quick chat with HR whilst popping past, and they have largely echoed our thoughts, that our manager cannot decide who we do or do not spend time with outside of work.

Our manager has now doubled down, and whenever they spot us chatting to members of the other team outside of a meeting or when we have something else to do they ask us to return to our office. We can't even have lunch together anymore.

Feels sooooo petty and dramatic and like we're back at secondary school being separated from our friends, and I'm almost embarrassed to even bring it up with them at this point because we're working professionals, not children, but it is affecting both how we feel being essentially sequestered in our office at all hours of the day, but also how our team feels about our manager, who ordinarily is very relaxed and we love them. We're (my team+manager) going to a residential event in a few weeks with the other team and have been deliberately sat separately, our hotel rooms are floors apart, and our manager has asked us out for a drink in the evening (just to cover all angles!) so it appears really clear that communicating outside of work is a no-no now.

WWYD? AIBU to ask HR to have a word ahead of the event?

there have been occasions where drunken snogs, a barmy outside the kebab shop at 2am etc has come up at work

expressed concern over professional boundaries, appropriate behaviour etc. They have explicitly said that they do not think we should interact the way we do with the other team outside of work.

There is also the issue of one of my colleagues being so infatuated with a member of the other team that HR actually had to get involved

I think your Manager has a good point.
None of this is an appropriate way to interact with colleagues.

I do think they have a point to be concerned about the overspill of these events coming into the workplace (arguments, snogs, HR issues etc) but I actually don’t know really what they can do about it - you cannot stop people meeting up outside of work. Absolutely nothing to do with them what happens outside of working hours of course BUT when it is not left outside of working hours then yes, I can see them having some grounds.
God knows what they could actually do about it though, maybe a HR bod will be along soon!

I can’t tell if you’re playing down the severity of it all or not. I can’t see how your manager can dictate who you see outside of work though. I know some businesses ask that you declare actual relationships, but friendships? Really? How does she know you didn’t know each other before you worked where you do?

Your company is potentially still liable for things that happen on “work” nights out even if they are not “official” and given what you’ve described I can see why they’d rather you kept your relationships professional

If its your lunch break, your manager has no say over what you're doing.

You sound pretty unprofessional and your subtle hints that the manger raised it out of jealousy are out of order.
Its ok to be friendly with colleagues but it sounds like it could be negatively affecting your work

While your manager can't control you in this way do they have a point? It does seem like very unprofessional behaviour. What is the relationship between the teams, are you auditing the other team or something like that?

Your manager is right. The behavior you describe, even if outside of work, sounds immature at worst and unprofessional at worst.

Are you really so naive to not read your own post and wince. Especially about the infatuated colleague and HR intervention.

To be honest, even if nothing else, expect your reputation to be damaged if you are associated socially with people who behave like this. Surprised you can’t see this.

I mean, it happens at that age. But at some point if people are serious about progression etc they start to rein it in.

And the whole infatuation thing sounds potentially concerning so I can see why they are keeping an eye on it

Nights out with colleagues is work and work are responsible

Most people don't understand that, it's not the 80's anymore - you can't have fights outside kebab shops and get off with your Co-workers without consequences

Welcome to (shit) adulthood 🤷‍♀️

(Man, the SHIT we used to get up to before mobile phones )

Of course what you do outside working hours is your business. However...

I see our manager's point; there have been occasions where drunken snogs, a barmy outside the kebab shop at 2am etc has come up at work, though it's always been laughed off and all is forgiven. If something more serious did happen, there is the potential that it would affect two teams rather than one.

there is the strong possibility that the fallout will be brought into work. It's the snogging and drunken arguments. It's not the meals and get togethers.

Yeah sorry I also think this comes across as really unprofessional.

This. If you like your manager and they've bought this up then I would listen to them. They want you to do well.

While they can't dictate what you do outside of work hours, can you really not see that fights outside a kebab shop are really unprofessional. And no matter the cause, will have repercussions in the workplace. If all of this is happening so often that your manager is having to try to prevent it, then clearly you are all behaving badly and he's right, unprofessionally.

You might be in your twenties, but at some point you'll have to grow up and realise there's reasons that this isn't appropriate in the workplace.

My old workplace had relationships coming out of their ears.

I'm not sure that was the best option either. The company funded nights out I think to try and engender friendships and therefore goodwill.

I think halfway between that approach and your new manager's approach seems fair enough.

Thanks all for your input on this, it has been such a massive drama at work that it's making us all feel really paranoid about who we can be seen with/talk to.

Absolutely getting what is being said about the issue with my colleague - they acted out of order, and HR clamped down on it hard, as they should!!! I suppose what we're feeling (speaking for the two teams here) is that to 'punish' for lack of a better word, us all by stopping us from being friendly seems, childishly, a bit unfair. We are definitely living vicariously through our younger selves which I realise, and the nights out and freedom that comes with being a student for example does wain slightly when you step into adulthood - I just didn't expect it to be this fast!

Also understand 100% the issue with some of the behaviours exhibited on nights out, at parties etc. No excuses from me for the way some people have acted!

To answer a PP (sorry, typing on mobile and can't scroll), no we are not auditing their team. We're equal in the company hierarchy, they're just in a different department to us, though under the same higher ups somewhere on the chart.

I have also realised that I don't know the meaning of the word barmy at my grand age - just to reiterate there have been no fights, verbal or physical!! What I thought it meant was a bit of a bicker, someone trying to pinch someone else's chips for example. My apologies for any confusion there!!

Surely the issue is that you are banned from seeing the other team

But your team and their team can still go out and be wild regardless.

The manager is weird to try and ban interactions between 2 teams whether at lunch or at weekends..

Whether overall the behaviour of everyone is unprofessional, that's another matter really.

I can understand them not wanting arguments and relationships brought into the workplace, but I would usually see things like lunch together as a good thing. Where I worked, it was a good opportunity to find out what's going on, see opportunities for better working together on projects and so on. Certain relationships have been banned - between different levels in the same reporting line, and with the audit team, but otherwise, there were a few couples around.

I've done a lot of socialising through work, even been on holiday with colleagues, and had relationships through work, only one of which was known about (to the best of my knowledge.) But I haven't brought arguments into the workplace, or let it get in the way of work. If you can't do that, they're right to separate you. But even in my 20s, I knew what was expected of professional behaviour in the workplace. Sometimes you have to work with people you think are arseholes, but you have to get on with it, because that's what you're being paid to do. It's not actually difficult.

I can see both sides of this.

Some of what you describe is very unprofessional and I think the snogs and fighting is something they need to have rules on. There should be some kind of employee rule book that dictates acceptable standards of behaviour etc.

On the other hand I think it’s hardline and unrealistic to try to police social behaviour among people who work together. Young people have been going out with their coworkers and having fun (and occasionally having too much fun) for decades, to some extent that goes with the territory. And if it’s done well this is a definite advantage. Team cohesion, loyalty and job satisfaction all help a company.

The key is the culture and whether that culture is broadly positive, enhances cohesion and supports the wider work ethic. Professional boundaries are important but you can’t enforce this as you would in a school. These are adults.

Reasonable to expect staff to behave professionally, not bring the company into disrepute and conduct themselves in public with some dignity. Not reasonable to prevent normal social behaviour.

Yup sorry OP this is a message for you all to grow up, and fast. You're not students any more and the war stories of snogging and fighting, and borderline stalking, are NOT funny. It's embarrassing that you don't realise this. Grow up, knuckle down, get to work.

To me, if someone is barmy, it means they're a bit mad. Having a barny (n, not m,) is having an argument. But it's possible this is regional. Definitely slang, if not dialect.

Some of these responses 😂😂. So glad I've always got to have fun with colleagues who are now lifelong friends and not had to be policed by others

I can understand their concerns, but I would be ignoring them when it came to my own time outside of work.

Tbh…..The bosses sound heavy-handed and you lot sound immature.

There is probably a compromise to be had somewhere.

Enjoy yourselves but reign it in a bit.

It's strange the majority of the voting seems to agree with you but the comments with your manager.

I think it's an awkward boundary on what's classed as a work night out. Something like the organised christmas party or the residential your manager has some influence over, because you are there specifically as part of x company so any bad behaviour (e.g. screaming arguments) reflect badly on them.

However for the nights out you organise informally, whereby once you step out of the office you are just a group of friends who have met via work, rather than colleagues on a work outing then no, the manager absolutely can't tell you who to hang out with and tbh is on quite dodgy ground, as I can't imagine there aren't any other work friendships or even romantic relationships in such a big company. Saying it's okay for Tom and Bridget in HR and accounting to be dating, or Emma in Finance to go out for coffee with Janet in marketing is fine but your two teams aren't allowed would be completely impossible to justify.