Feeling a bit 'hmm' at these work rules...

[pickalilly1441]

Trying to be vague if I can, so please excuse any missing info!

Started a new job last year and absolutely loving it. I work in an off-shoot branch of a massive institution, where it's all very chilled out and relaxed (but we still work hard!) I am mid twenties, like most of our staff (bar the managers and some higher ups) and we all get on really, really well. My team works the closest with one other specific team, who are a bit younger (early to mid twenties). Since we're the same age and we work together the most, we've had parties, nights out, and dinners together. I saw no issue with this, though did always query why my manager didn't want to go but thought nothing of it, they're a parent and a commuter so appreciate nights out might not be their cup of tea. I'd really hate for them to feel left out or jealous, and I don't necessarily think this is the case because we do invite them every single time.

In a recent 1-1 we got chatting about my plans for an upcoming weekend, and when I mentioned I'd be going out with the other team, they cut the meeting short and asked me back into the office. They then had a sit down with our team and expressed concern over professional boundaries, appropriate behaviour etc. They have explicitly said that they do not think we should interact the way we do with the other team outside of work. Other members of my team were not happy with this, and said as much.

I see our manager's point; there have been occasions where drunken snogs, a barmy outside the kebab shop at 2am etc has come up at work, though it's always been laughed off and all is forgiven. If something more serious did happen, there is the potential that it would affect two teams rather than one.

There is also the issue of one of my colleagues being so infatuated with a member of the other team that HR actually had to get involved, though seemingly they are behaving in a more restrained, appropriate way now (hard to tell, I don't speak to them as much) - I see why my manager would be keen to avoid a repeat of this, but the blanket punishment method didn't work in primary school, and surely doesn't work now we are adults? Unsure how to unpick this finer detail in all honesty, as I do recognise it is a problem.

However, I also see my own side (obviously) and that of the other team, who were told the same thing by my manager, though not their own. They/we are of the opinion that what goes on outside of work hours is, within reason, our own business and cannot be dictated by managers, higher ups etc. I had a quick chat with HR whilst popping past, and they have largely echoed our thoughts, that our manager cannot decide who we do or do not spend time with outside of work.

Our manager has now doubled down, and whenever they spot us chatting to members of the other team outside of a meeting or when we have something else to do they ask us to return to our office. We can't even have lunch together anymore.

Feels sooooo petty and dramatic and like we're back at secondary school being separated from our friends, and I'm almost embarrassed to even bring it up with them at this point because we're working professionals, not children, but it is affecting both how we feel being essentially sequestered in our office at all hours of the day, but also how our team feels about our manager, who ordinarily is very relaxed and we love them. We're (my team+manager) going to a residential event in a few weeks with the other team and have been deliberately sat separately, our hotel rooms are floors apart, and our manager has asked us out for a drink in the evening (just to cover all angles!) so it appears really clear that communicating outside of work is a no-no now.

WWYD? AIBU to ask HR to have a word ahead of the event?

I'd say cool the work colleagues socialising for a bit, don't chat about it in work and see how it goes. Your managers can't tell you who to socialise with but it sounds like the level of crossover between work days and non work events has been causing a bit of a problem here and there.

In general, there's no harm in showing your manager, and other people above them, that you understand the need for team spirit, which includes the impact of the kind of issues that have come up. It sounds like she might not have gone about it in the best way, but try to take it in the best spirit and hopefully everything will settle down.

I've worked in a workplace that had non stop relationships between colleagues including arguments, bullying, pregnancies and marriages!

They employed a certain age category (20-30 year olds), paid them well, funded big nights out and the outcome was the above.

Then the recession hit, people grew up, people moved to other areas of the business and bought houses and settled down.

I don't think management can dictate who you can/cannot see outside of work but they can stop facilitating it in the workplace.

Keep the socialising outside of the workplace. Keep professional in the workplace. If it isn't possible to do both, stick to the rules.

Honestly the way this is written is embarrassing and really immature. I have been a line manager and there’s no chance I’d go on a night out with the team in an unofficial capacity. It’s not due to jealousy, it’s not wanting to witness what’s going on or be put in the awkward situation of knowing what’s happened and dealing with the fallout on Monday! When I was in my early twenties in my first professional job I went on a number of these type of nights out but we never brought it into work and no one ever received any form of warning from hr because we were all adults and knew that a drunken kiss wasn’t anything to do with normal day to day work.
but in a personal note, if you want to progress in your company you need to decide what’s important. Being associated in this nonsense or not

This.

You are acting like you’re in secondary school and are suprised that as a result you’re being treated as if you were.

Behave professionally like a responsible adult, have nights out but don’t get bladdered. Your manager won’t need stupid rules then.

If you were all socialising together and behaving reasonably, there wouldn’t have been a need to create a “rule”. Your manager is definitely avoiding going out with your group, because they might witness something they’d have to act on.

PPs are right that colleagues socialising together and getting out of hand can end up being the employer’s responsibility, whether or not it’s an official event. The company will be setting out their clear expectations of behaviour, so that they have some protection if people do otherwise and it all ends up with HR.

The horrible impact of a disciplinary case on everyone directly or indirectly involved, means that every sensible employer will take all precautions to prevent it getting that far.

If all of you calm down a bit, and stick to lunching with your own team, it might give you a chance to decide if you value the nights out more than your job. If so, time to job-hunt or ask for a transfer to the other team!

I'm not surprised management don't want this, if your group can't socialise without getting drunk and all that entails.

Surely the company benefits from the teams getting along?

Feels sooooo petty and dramatic and like we're back at secondary school being separated from our friends, and I'm almost embarrassed to even bring it up with them at this point because we're working professionals, not children,

But you're acting like secondary school pupils, so what do you expect? You're certainly not acting like working professionals.

Being drunk and disorderly outside of work as a group of employees reflects badly on your company.

In my company, you do not have to socialise outside of your working hours. If you don't want to go for a glass of wine with your boss and plan work, don't.

HR may double down and make all socialisation clearer and it may not go the way you want. HR is their to protect the interests of the business, not your social life. Your HR colleague sounds unprofessional too.

You sound immature. Being early to mid twenties doesn't necessarily mean you get free pass to acting like freshers week lasts 8 years. The kind of nonsense and gossip from your socialising sticks around.

It's an impossible situation for a manager, and why I rarely socialise with colleagues. Things that happen outside work but between colleagues can and do impact the office and everyone in it.
If you want to keep socialising do it discretely and draw a definite line between the two.

I had a quick chat with HR whilst popping past, and they have largely echoed our thoughts, that our manager cannot decide who we do or do not spend time with outside of work.

Is this a reverse?

Ahh, the Scranton branch merger. I think Michael has a point.

I agree, this behaviour is shockingly unprofessional and disruptive. No manager is going to allow this carry on.

I could quite easily see criminal charges stemming from some of this.

Young people have been going out with their coworkers and having fun (and occasionally having too much fun) for decades, to some extent that goes with the territory. And if it’s done well this is a definite advantage. Team cohesion, loyalty and job satisfaction all help a company.

Not just young people. In my last job the CEO was the ringleader on nights out!

While I think people do need to be mindful if misbehaving that onlookers might well know where they work, I think telling a group of adults that they can't even have lunch with someone from another team is ridiculous and as for not socialising out of work hours, well I would be pointing out that they cannot police that at all. It sounds like a terrible workplace.

The problem is that you and the others seem to think you can carry on socialising in the workplace, and all the drama is overspilling into the office. If you focus on work while at work and keep the other stuff outside, no one will have a problem with it. Why are you telling your boss about your weekend plans? That is nothing to do with them. You also don't need to chat to people from the other team at work, unless it's about work, your boss is perfectly well entitled to expect you to be working rather than hanging round gossiping all the time. If lunch is unpaid and you leave the premises you can see who you want. Otherwise while on work time or premises, it's up to your boss.

you are acting like a bunch of 15 year olds on work experience

Absolutely. And clearly something has filtered down to the manager for her to have taken fairly drastic steps. I'm assuming that someone on one of the teams has been on the receiving end of behaviour that they're not comfortable with, and has put in a complaint.

Seriously, you all sound like a nightmare to manage..

I see this from two perspectives:

as someone who was once a 20 something, it is entirely normal to party, socialise and connect socially in all ways with peers and colleagues at the same life stage. This is how life long friendships and relationships are forged, and it’s a fun right if passage for many working professionals.

as a manager who has had to deal with various nonsense from employees - I can guarantee that what you know about what has been brought to the workplace is the tip of the iceberg and one or more people are causing nightmares for your manager and HR that are impacting the workplace. Having been I now realise an easy employee for most of my career, I was shocked when I became a manager and realised how many people bring their bullshit to work and cause absolute mayhem behind the scenes.

My advice is if you generally like and trust your manager don’t make a huge issue of this. Listen to her, leave your friendships with colleagues for after hours and consider which of these people you with and why.

They're not childish and they're definitely not jealous - they're worried about their liability for any shit that goes down while you're all out drunk. And loss of productivity while you gossip about it afterwards.

Your manager sounds like a complete joy, ignor him, have some fun - lot of the professional mafia on here, people who bandy around the word professional left, right and top dead centre.
Be cautious around the "Human Remains" department as we call them, they make traffic wardens and estate agents look saintly, snides who will stab you in the back soon as look at you, keep 'em down wind!

I am bemused by the responses but I have been out of the corporate work place for a very long time. I trained as a chartered accountant in the 1990's, shared a flat with two trainee lawyers while my partner was on a graduate trainee scheme for a large FMCG company. Later we moved jobs to similar companies as did many of our friends. It was like the programme 'This Life' with fewer drugs.. we moved on to our 'Cold Feet' stage later.. well... not really.. life did get real though.

There was a huge amount of partying, getting up to no good at company training events, a lot of socialising, holidays, nights out, days out, lots of firm friendships made, some marriages, some divorces and marital scandals.

I am not going to lie but when some of those people turned up in my life when I was a 40 year old with three children, I had a few blushes and embarassed memories... but it was all fairly normal for my 20's.

I am glad there was no photographic evidence. I do remembered one of our group being handed the bar bill the Monday after a Christmas dinner after pushing the boundaries and adding several bottles of champagne after the partners had left.

There were many other cringe worthy moments and many hangovers of shame but I don't think my experience was unusal.

Your manager is out of order policing who you see at lunch time and when you are not being paid outside of work.

Just dont talk about it to them. Chat normally in work time to who you like as long as your work isnt affected.

I'd assume something is going on behind the scenes (someone has made a serious accusation) and your boss has gone into damage limitation mode in the only way she knows.

I wrote about experiencing similar things. It was also the late 1990s and early 2000s. I felt old reading people being horrified about 20 somethings socialising and getting drunk together :). Maybe I am getting old. It was perfectly normal behaviour back then. I can also relate to people ordering a bottle of champagne for themselves on the bar tab on work nights out! That did have us talking (and laughing) the following Monday morning. Thankfully, while mobile phones were becoming the norm, they were more suited to playing 'snake' than taking photos!

I am glad there was no photographic evidence

And there you have it.

The world is a different place now. There are SO many things that we all got away with in the past, but can't now. In pretty much every area of work and life.

Our managers didn't have to deal with complaints of drunken and sexual behaviour, because those on the wrong end of it were expected to just put up with it. But now behaviour can be videoed. Conversations recorded. And if a colleague with a crush on you is becoming a pest or crossing a sexual line, you don't have to put up with it and you CAN go to your manager and raise a complaint.

Absolutely. This hasn't come out of nowhere..