Feeling a bit 'hmm' at these work rules...

[pickalilly1441]

Trying to be vague if I can, so please excuse any missing info!

Started a new job last year and absolutely loving it. I work in an off-shoot branch of a massive institution, where it's all very chilled out and relaxed (but we still work hard!) I am mid twenties, like most of our staff (bar the managers and some higher ups) and we all get on really, really well. My team works the closest with one other specific team, who are a bit younger (early to mid twenties). Since we're the same age and we work together the most, we've had parties, nights out, and dinners together. I saw no issue with this, though did always query why my manager didn't want to go but thought nothing of it, they're a parent and a commuter so appreciate nights out might not be their cup of tea. I'd really hate for them to feel left out or jealous, and I don't necessarily think this is the case because we do invite them every single time.

In a recent 1-1 we got chatting about my plans for an upcoming weekend, and when I mentioned I'd be going out with the other team, they cut the meeting short and asked me back into the office. They then had a sit down with our team and expressed concern over professional boundaries, appropriate behaviour etc. They have explicitly said that they do not think we should interact the way we do with the other team outside of work. Other members of my team were not happy with this, and said as much.

I see our manager's point; there have been occasions where drunken snogs, a barmy outside the kebab shop at 2am etc has come up at work, though it's always been laughed off and all is forgiven. If something more serious did happen, there is the potential that it would affect two teams rather than one.

There is also the issue of one of my colleagues being so infatuated with a member of the other team that HR actually had to get involved, though seemingly they are behaving in a more restrained, appropriate way now (hard to tell, I don't speak to them as much) - I see why my manager would be keen to avoid a repeat of this, but the blanket punishment method didn't work in primary school, and surely doesn't work now we are adults? Unsure how to unpick this finer detail in all honesty, as I do recognise it is a problem.

However, I also see my own side (obviously) and that of the other team, who were told the same thing by my manager, though not their own. They/we are of the opinion that what goes on outside of work hours is, within reason, our own business and cannot be dictated by managers, higher ups etc. I had a quick chat with HR whilst popping past, and they have largely echoed our thoughts, that our manager cannot decide who we do or do not spend time with outside of work.

Our manager has now doubled down, and whenever they spot us chatting to members of the other team outside of a meeting or when we have something else to do they ask us to return to our office. We can't even have lunch together anymore.

Feels sooooo petty and dramatic and like we're back at secondary school being separated from our friends, and I'm almost embarrassed to even bring it up with them at this point because we're working professionals, not children, but it is affecting both how we feel being essentially sequestered in our office at all hours of the day, but also how our team feels about our manager, who ordinarily is very relaxed and we love them. We're (my team+manager) going to a residential event in a few weeks with the other team and have been deliberately sat separately, our hotel rooms are floors apart, and our manager has asked us out for a drink in the evening (just to cover all angles!) so it appears really clear that communicating outside of work is a no-no now.

WWYD? AIBU to ask HR to have a word ahead of the event?

They do have a point but whatever happens outside of work has nothing to do with them! If you want to go out after work then so be it they can't stop you from having a social life

I see where your manager is coming from. This is a professional workplace, it's not a secondary school. Neither of the teams should be bringing this drama into work and HR should not be having to teach you how to behave like adults/professionals or deal with harassment cases etc if anyone gets upset.

First of all, STOP inviting your manager. Immediately it's no longer a work drinks thing. Next, whenever your manager asks what you're doing this weekend, you're socialising with friends. No need to mention colleagues or the other team. Because they're friends, and your manager is not. Don't debrief about the weekend within hearing distance.

I'd talk to HR about telling you who to have lunch with and being told to return to your office, though. That's inappropriate. Unless the sexual harasser/'infatuated' person has been told to stay away from the other person, and they're tarring everyone with the same brush...

I feel very sorry for young people. When I started in my first “proper” job, I was 21 and we did a lot of socialising. I got off with a whole bunch of other young people in my office and ended up meeting my husband through a friend I sat next to at work.

The late 90s and early 2000s had their issues but it was normal to expect young people to socialise.

People talk about young people not having enough resilience but can we also talk about how lonely some may be? If they work for a big company, chances are that at least a few have moved to a new city where they don’t know many people. They live in a world where inter-office relationships are banned and, in this case, friendships between departments.

Haven't read all replies but have read the OPs posts and the first third or so of replies. People on this thread are being barmy. OF COURSE your manager can't tell you who you can and can't hang out with, that is RIDICULOUS overstepping on their part. HR are stepping in, as they should, if it bleeds into work - but that's nothing to do with work and it sounds like you personally haven't done anything to be concerned about so it is outrageous that someone's micromanaging your social life.

Honestly I (43) have been despairing at how bloody SERIOUS young people in the office are these days. I'm so happy to hear that you're out there having fun and being silly. The shit we used to get up to as young 20-somethings!

If you feel brave enough you might say something like "thanks for your concern, Brian, but I don't think it's appropriate for you to tell me what I can and can't do outside of work hours as long as I'm not personally behaving inappropriately. If you're concerned about others behaviour I suggest you take it up with them directly". But it's hard to have that sort of conversation with your boss give the power imbalance so I actually think you're well within your rights to ask HR to have a word with your manager if they don't back off.

I have also realised that I don't know the meaning of the word barmy at my grand age - just to reiterate there have been no fights, verbal or physical!! What I thought it meant was a bit of a bicker, someone trying to pinch someone else's chips for example. My apologies for any confusion there!!

The word is barney. Sometimes claimed to be cockney rhyming slang: Barney Rubble = Trouble. But it's older than that - and common in Ireland.

It isn't a case of 'there you have it' at all.

Do you really believe that people didn't have infatuations in the 90s/early 2000s?
That there weren't cases of drunken behaviour?

I remember drinking in the office in the run up to Christmas, people emailing photos of crushes around the office that they downloaded from the work website, senior staff members getting very very drunk at work parties.
I remember a couple of infatuated people. One guy left a 'love letter' on his crush's desk every day at lunch time. He never signed it but people saw him approaching her desk every day and everyone knew who they were from. Of course management still had to get involved and ask him to stop. There were numerous affairs, pregnancies, relationships. These things still happened. They were able to get evidence and intervene even without mobile phones.

Dear god. If you all wanted to be able to go out outside work you should have knocked the drunken snogging on the head before it started! Team Manager all the way here, you all sound like a nightmare.

My job used to be like this in my twenties. Thankfully now I am old and boring and thought of actually having to socialise with my colleagues fills me with horror

Yet a surprising number of people meet their partners at work. Do none of them socialise or snog each other first?

Yes it's barney, but with an e. I looked it up and the phrase is actually "Barney Cassel", referring to a song about the Bowe family , who lived in Barnard Castle. I can't be bothered to write out all the info (it's too late!) but it's about the Earl not wanting to fight alongside the rebels and the song accuses him of cowardice. So a Barney is what happens when someone doesn't have the guts to have a fight, hence the usual phrase "it was just a bit of a barney", I suppose.

You can have lunch with whoever you want and do whatever you want outside of work. However, if you are frequently seen at work hanging out with a bunch of younger party animals and loudly talking about your parties and drunken escapades and love lives on work premises/work time, then you will be viewed as unprofessional and immature and not an asset to the organisation (at least in the industries I've worked in).

there have been occasions where drunken snogs, a barmy outside the kebab shop at 2am etc has come up at work

There is also the issue of one of my colleagues being so infatuated with a member of the other team that HR actually had to get involved

I'm almost embarrassed to even bring it up with them at this point because we're working professionals, not children

Surely you see how the first two points don’t gel with the third. This is not the way working professionals act. Seems like your manager is trying to set appropriate boundaries for you all because you are incapable of this yourselves.

I can see your bosses point of view. When I was 18 I started working for a large company and each individual hotel/restaurant within the chain were known for some unknown reason as houses. We were all with the exception of some of the managers mostly between 16 and 25 years old and so like you and your colleagues liked to socialise outside of work when we could. The result of two team members engagement party with their family and colleagues in our own house (both worked there)was one staff member getting fired and the general manager leaving after her husband who had joined us that night decided to try it on with two of my colleagues. One colleague also ended up almost getting barred from her local after one of the women she blamed for ruining her engagement party walked in and she flew for her.

The second incident was a flat warming with colleagues from a different house resulted in two colleagues being fired. One from each house and three people facing charges of ABH.

They had an awful time trying to get a general manager after that as management were all scared of what they would be walking into.

Your manager is trying to avoid potentially serious fallout damaging the workplace environment.

My colleagues and I all get on really well. There have been many drunken nights out. I go to a regular event at a bar with some colleagues who live near me. Other colleagues have been on each other’s stag and hen dos etc. We’ve had some Christmas and leaving dos that have ended up in total carnage, frankly.

However, at no point have we ever sat in the office discussing drunken snogs or 2am arguments outside kebab shops. I’m in my 40s now but I didn’t have those conversations at work when I was in my 20s either. I don’t think they can stop you socialising with colleagues but it’s clearly creeping into the workplace in terms of conversation and fallout, and you’re being naive if you think that’s not going to raise eyebrows. I suspect it’s the nature of the conversations at work that people think are inappropriate or boundary crossing, and I suspect they are correct.

I’ve known people date at work. If it goes well, one of them has to move. If it goes badly, one of them has to move. For that reason, people generally prefer to find partners elsewhere. Don’t shit where you eat etc…

I’ve never worked anywhere where everyone’s putting it about to the extent the OP describes though!

Yeah, I don’t think the drunken snogging itself is really the problem (it’s how I met my partner 20 years ago!). It’s more that the gossiping about it in the office the next day and the apparent inability to deal with any fallout as a result that’s causing an issue. Particularly as in the OP’s case there was an infatuation going on with a team member that was significant enough to require HR intervention.

Oh, I actually know loads of people who work with their partners or spouses. I work with mine.

We spend so much of our lives at work that for some people mixing with people from work is ALL the social life some people have. Obviously inside and outside work issues should be kept separate though.

Oh dear, I'd stay well away from socialising with work colleagues so much. It will cause a lot more problems than this incident but I guess you have to learn your lesson that way. Despite of what you might think these people are not your friends and will not be your friends.

Respect to your manager to keep away from the partying. What a shitshow it would be if they joined in as well.

This will not end well. At all.

HR here. Your manager cannot tell you what to do outside of work. Issues inside, yes. I would be more inclined to find resolution in the form of engagement between teams and a code of conduct that everyone agrees to. Enabling you all to still have those friendships.

Friendships in the workplace can be the backbone of any company. Your managers approach will turn the place toxic. I do not understand why they feel they can dictate. Maybe have a sit down and explain how you feel but also have a solution in mine. Perhaps a person from the other team to come as well. Like spokespeople for either side?

Couldn't agree more. With an explosion of mental health issues, we need to encourage healthy relationships not smack them down. Yes, there is a way to behave but I'm tired of hearing (any age) colleagues pulled up for the slightest gripe, worked all hours and paid way below usually. I do not believe this is behaving like a 15yr old, it's being a human being!

The way you've explained this OP sounds to me like a manager with a bit of an ego. I have managed numerous ER in my time and you pick your battles. This is petty imo.

Depends how much you care about this job. If it’s where you plan to build a career then I’d put some distance between myself and this other team who seem to have already bad reputation. If it’s just a student w’ever job then I’d just ignore the rules!

Firstly, do not ever talk to HR when you're annoyed with your boss. Their principal purpose in the company is to find a legitimate reason to sack you if your manager wants you gone. They are NOT your friend. They work for your employer, not you.

Secondly, you're all 'unofficially' under scrutiny with a view to who might or might not be considered for promotion - the stories of you & your younger mates snogging & rowing outside the kebab shop will be percolating back. That would be a thing to distance yourself from, if you want to get on in the company. Call it a night at midnight if you're out with this crew, & save your wilder nights for non-work friends.

Thirdly, your manager is not feeling left out, or not coming out because they're a parent or a commuter. Your manager is pissed off at having to manage a team who are dragging their Club 18-30 behaviour into work.

Fourthly, the 'infatuated' colleague - well, it seems clear that they were harassing a work mate sufficiently for HR to act. That is not just 'oh Adam is very grumpy because Chloe said no thanks, & he's gone home to sulk'. That's HR level harassment involvement. This is 'woah people are complaining to HR about incidences of harassment taking place on nights out.'

If you're a professional, then you can discreetly swing upside down from a lamppost with a bunch of begonias up your bottom most weekends. With your non work mates.

If your weekend activities are being talked about disapprovingly by HR, then you are not compartmentalising like a professional. You are just one of a group of VERY unprofessional idiots gossiping about fighting, snogging, & nicking each others' chips, with a side order of associated sexual harassment.

It's not a great look.

Do you see yourself progressing at the company? Maybe its not on your radar right now.

No your managers cant dictate your life outside of work, but they can prevent you passing probation or progressing.

A lot of people dont care about that in their twenties. But if/when you do, you may need to look elsewhere.

From their perspective, they may see you as someone they want to invest in but feel unwilling to put the time and money in when you are out with people ho may bring the company into disrepute.