Feeling a bit 'hmm' at these work rules...

[pickalilly1441]

Trying to be vague if I can, so please excuse any missing info!

Started a new job last year and absolutely loving it. I work in an off-shoot branch of a massive institution, where it's all very chilled out and relaxed (but we still work hard!) I am mid twenties, like most of our staff (bar the managers and some higher ups) and we all get on really, really well. My team works the closest with one other specific team, who are a bit younger (early to mid twenties). Since we're the same age and we work together the most, we've had parties, nights out, and dinners together. I saw no issue with this, though did always query why my manager didn't want to go but thought nothing of it, they're a parent and a commuter so appreciate nights out might not be their cup of tea. I'd really hate for them to feel left out or jealous, and I don't necessarily think this is the case because we do invite them every single time.

In a recent 1-1 we got chatting about my plans for an upcoming weekend, and when I mentioned I'd be going out with the other team, they cut the meeting short and asked me back into the office. They then had a sit down with our team and expressed concern over professional boundaries, appropriate behaviour etc. They have explicitly said that they do not think we should interact the way we do with the other team outside of work. Other members of my team were not happy with this, and said as much.

I see our manager's point; there have been occasions where drunken snogs, a barmy outside the kebab shop at 2am etc has come up at work, though it's always been laughed off and all is forgiven. If something more serious did happen, there is the potential that it would affect two teams rather than one.

There is also the issue of one of my colleagues being so infatuated with a member of the other team that HR actually had to get involved, though seemingly they are behaving in a more restrained, appropriate way now (hard to tell, I don't speak to them as much) - I see why my manager would be keen to avoid a repeat of this, but the blanket punishment method didn't work in primary school, and surely doesn't work now we are adults? Unsure how to unpick this finer detail in all honesty, as I do recognise it is a problem.

However, I also see my own side (obviously) and that of the other team, who were told the same thing by my manager, though not their own. They/we are of the opinion that what goes on outside of work hours is, within reason, our own business and cannot be dictated by managers, higher ups etc. I had a quick chat with HR whilst popping past, and they have largely echoed our thoughts, that our manager cannot decide who we do or do not spend time with outside of work.

Our manager has now doubled down, and whenever they spot us chatting to members of the other team outside of a meeting or when we have something else to do they ask us to return to our office. We can't even have lunch together anymore.

Feels sooooo petty and dramatic and like we're back at secondary school being separated from our friends, and I'm almost embarrassed to even bring it up with them at this point because we're working professionals, not children, but it is affecting both how we feel being essentially sequestered in our office at all hours of the day, but also how our team feels about our manager, who ordinarily is very relaxed and we love them. We're (my team+manager) going to a residential event in a few weeks with the other team and have been deliberately sat separately, our hotel rooms are floors apart, and our manager has asked us out for a drink in the evening (just to cover all angles!) so it appears really clear that communicating outside of work is a no-no now.

WWYD? AIBU to ask HR to have a word ahead of the event?

I think your manager has a point, we all socialise outside of work at my workplace but nothing that you describe has ever happened. So I can understand why the manager won’t just brush it off when so much has happened outside of work.

Socialising outside work? fine
Inviting the manager, who declines (maybe because they find it easier/more professional to manage people who they don't socialise with? maybe they are clever enough to realise that having a manager there can put a damper on a social occasion?) fine
Speculating manager is jealous? not fine - speculating they might be jealous? (to whom? yourself, meh bit ok. To colleagues? stop it)

chit-chat about social occasions in work? in very small doses (water cooler chat, coffee break chat, lunchbreak chat) fine
endlessly talking about it, letting it affect your work? not fine

Sitting together at lunch? meh, I'd point out to my manager that's not on the company time so ok. (but if it makes lunch drag out etc, nope)

part of being younger and junior at work is to learn how to handle work situations (factory floor of a fish gutting factory, or office work at the big 4, doesn't matter: work relationships have to be navigated properly)

it also includes learning from senior people how to get on (or how not to manage)

Whining to HR is never a good look.
Factual, official, well-grounded complaints to HR? fine.

I was replying directly to the OP. As you should.

but when you are chatting to the other team, are you working?

We have issues with some of our team (similar ages) because of how well they get on.

I often say it's great that they all get on, but it's a nightmare that they all get on!

It blurs the lines between professional work and personal life and sometimes there are personal disagreements and bickering that spills in to work life and affects the work. Plus we have the added annoyance of them still being friends with ex-members of staff who stir things up from time to time.

While we can talk to our staff about our expectations for how staff will act and interact at work, and give them a bit of a bollocking if they're being unreasonable at work (I don't have kids but sometimes feel like I've inherited a bunch of teenagers at work!), we can't control who they do and don't see outside of work.

This thread has made me feel very old. In the past I can imagine being like you, enjoying being “one of the gang” at work and enjoying all the nights out and the gossip and drama. Now I just immediately imagine I’m the manager in this situation and think, god, how exhausting, imagine having to manage what essentially sounds like a big group of teenagers who can’t help themselves from running round getting drunk every week and then bringing all their dramas to work.

YABU and I wouldn’t be surprised if your organisation start purposely shaping your teams so it’s not just a load of 20 somethings together to reduce the chances of this happening.

I would politely suggest that if they are going to attempt to control what you do outside of work hours that you would like to be paid for those hours, at at least minimum wage.

Now I just immediately imagine I’m the manager in this situation and think, god, how exhausting, imagine having to manage what essentially sounds like a big group of teenagers who can’t help themselves from running round getting drunk every week and then bringing all their dramas to work.

Exactly my thoughts! I really feel for your manager. They might not be dealing with all of it in the right way but my god it sounds like a nightmare!

In fairness to the OP, we are not told that they have a work party WhatsApp group going. It sounds as though she makes a point of inviting the manager to be friendly and open.

She has also not said that they talk about what went on with the other team endlessly - people refer to it briefly but it’s good natured.

HR getting involved over someone’s infatuation sounds like more of a problem for the manager. Although, as the OP was not one of the people involved, it is the manager’s problem rather than the OP’s.

Honestly? Don’t talk to HR any more. They are not your friends, even if they look friendly. Their job is (in part) to stop someone taking them to a tribunal.

Meet up with the other team properly outside work and don’t tell other people. Don’t mention anything that goes on while you are in the office. Don’t write anything down (text, WhatsApp, email) which slags off your manager or could make you look bad.

It might be worth checking your employment handbook.

At one company I worked for, nights out with colleagues after work that resulted in poor behavior e.g one chap once punched another colleague while drunk, they were able to use the work disciplinary process.

You are fine to have friendships and relationships with colleagues out of work and your employer obviously has absolutely no control over that. However, having a word around ensuring professional boundaries are still in place during office hours is totally fine.

I think your manager would be on shaky ground trying to impose any outright ban on socialising outside of work hours - and realistically, it would be impossible to police unless you’re posting pictures all over social media. However, I can see why they’ve gone in a bit heavy handed if numerous events from nights out - and most importantly, an “infatuation” serious enough to involve HR - have started becoming hot topics in the workplace.

The worst possible thing you could do is ask HR to “have a word” before the upcoming event. Your argument is that your manager can’t dictate what you do outside of work - complaining that you’re not allowed to sit with your friends at a work event is playing right into their hands. This is one time when your manager absolutely can dictate who does what and when; it’s not a jolly. Show that you can be professional and keep personal friendships separate.

If you want to keep your friendships with your colleagues going, make all arrangements via personal phones and social media (no messaging on Teams or other internal systems) and don’t waste time at work chatting. Going in hard against your manager will only backfire.

YABU and I wouldn’t be surprised if your organisation start purposely shaping your teams so it’s not just a load of 20 somethings together to reduce the chances of this happening.

IMO it is better to have a mix of ages, sex, and experience, tbh. New people learn the ropes from the more established ones. The older ones can sometimes benefit from a new eye on their processes etc.

It's a mix at times with the politics of the different groups,

Your manage is being completely unreasonable. I would push back and keep reinforcing that they gave no set on who you much with or socialise with out of work. Its way overstepping boundaries so would be throwing that one back at home.

I would also not be happy being told who I could chat with in with either. It creates an oppressive working environment so would be focussing on that angle.

We are definitely living vicariously through our younger selves which I realise, and the nights out and freedom that comes with being a student for example does wain slightly when you step into adulthood - I just didn't expect it to be this fast!

From a managers perspective, this sounds like a really unhelpful dynamic, a huge distraction and just a pain in the arse. I find it hard to believe that any manager wants to get involved in this nonsense. It sounds to me like they've had no choice.

Work isn't there to facilitate your social life. If you want to re-live your adolescence by having messy nights out with this other team then your managers cannot stop you. But if you start making a fuss about not being allowed to sit with them at work events then don't expect them to take you seriously.

Having been there, if something happens on a night out when it’s all/vast majority colleagues it absolutely will have HR consequences.

not to say you’ll get in trouble for being drunk and having fun but that you already have someone with an HR issue, and that the snogging/barmy/whatever appears to be open office discussion is not great.

It also risks people who might not be involved in your group feeling left out which is not great.

so, pack in the chat about it in the office and I’d be careful about anything that’s sexual or could be construed as harassment / bigoted language / bullying, even (especially) if ‘in fun’

I agree the rules are unreasonable.

I don't think it healthy if all your socialising is with work colleagues, I think there should be time away from them.

Exactly. The thing is that it’s impinging on work. It’s using HR resources and the manager’s time and that has an impact on the business. You and your colleagues need to grow up @pickalilly1441.

@luckylavender
I was replying directly to the OP. As you should.

No! Are you new to MN?

You do not need to quote to 'reply directly' to the OP. By virtue of posting at all, you are essentially replying to her - it's her thread, her post.

What you are doing by quoting a long OP , only to write a sentence or two, is making it more irritating for other posters, especially on a phone, trying to scroll through posts.

It's irritating AND pointless.

Did you get out of bed the wrong side or something? No, I'm not new to Mumsnet. I've been here many years.

It's just as likely that all of them will be working somewhere else in a year or two, or the senior people will. I wouldn't honestly give it another thought and just enjoy your time there and be yourself.

When I worked in law firms it was always the more senior men causing trouble at work events and being gossiped about. Getting pissed, having fights, having affairs, sexual harassment, inappropriate comments, buggering off to the pub to let junior staff to complete staff. The younger ones were much more sensible and we enjoyed gossiping about fucking awful they were.

So they are getting the two teams together in a hotel and a retreat and expecting you not to communicate? This is not North Korea here

I’m a more senior person involved in exactly this scenario at the moment and it is a fucking nightmare.

we have 7 grads split across two teams and they all socialise, a lot. Two of them ended up shagging a few weeks ago and because they’re young and immature they haven’t managed it properly and it’s now caused a huge atmosphere in the office and ended up being my problem. We work in a professional environment as surveyors, we have tight deadlines and high fee targets and honestly my day job is stressful enough without having to field who-fucked-who in the monthly meetings.

I actually had to be the very boring fun sponge who called a meeting with them and HR and did a whole ethics training session about how we are duty bound to represent the profession in a way which promotes trust and integrity both in our jobs and our personal lives. So far, I’m imploring them all to behave under their own steam but we have discussed with HR the next steps if this keeps happening.

being very dry about it all, I’m still a fee earner as well as a manager of the team and having to sort out ridiculous personal spats between the kindergarten in the office a) takes up valuable time I could be doing client work and b) makes me wary of employing more 20something year olds.

It doesn't seem like policing your social life would be something your manager just decided on a whim.

I'd wager an official complaint has been put in by somebody. About something sufficiently serious that keeping the two teams separate to any extent they can has been mandated higher up the food chain.