Feeling a bit 'hmm' at these work rules...

[pickalilly1441]

Trying to be vague if I can, so please excuse any missing info!

Started a new job last year and absolutely loving it. I work in an off-shoot branch of a massive institution, where it's all very chilled out and relaxed (but we still work hard!) I am mid twenties, like most of our staff (bar the managers and some higher ups) and we all get on really, really well. My team works the closest with one other specific team, who are a bit younger (early to mid twenties). Since we're the same age and we work together the most, we've had parties, nights out, and dinners together. I saw no issue with this, though did always query why my manager didn't want to go but thought nothing of it, they're a parent and a commuter so appreciate nights out might not be their cup of tea. I'd really hate for them to feel left out or jealous, and I don't necessarily think this is the case because we do invite them every single time.

In a recent 1-1 we got chatting about my plans for an upcoming weekend, and when I mentioned I'd be going out with the other team, they cut the meeting short and asked me back into the office. They then had a sit down with our team and expressed concern over professional boundaries, appropriate behaviour etc. They have explicitly said that they do not think we should interact the way we do with the other team outside of work. Other members of my team were not happy with this, and said as much.

I see our manager's point; there have been occasions where drunken snogs, a barmy outside the kebab shop at 2am etc has come up at work, though it's always been laughed off and all is forgiven. If something more serious did happen, there is the potential that it would affect two teams rather than one.

There is also the issue of one of my colleagues being so infatuated with a member of the other team that HR actually had to get involved, though seemingly they are behaving in a more restrained, appropriate way now (hard to tell, I don't speak to them as much) - I see why my manager would be keen to avoid a repeat of this, but the blanket punishment method didn't work in primary school, and surely doesn't work now we are adults? Unsure how to unpick this finer detail in all honesty, as I do recognise it is a problem.

However, I also see my own side (obviously) and that of the other team, who were told the same thing by my manager, though not their own. They/we are of the opinion that what goes on outside of work hours is, within reason, our own business and cannot be dictated by managers, higher ups etc. I had a quick chat with HR whilst popping past, and they have largely echoed our thoughts, that our manager cannot decide who we do or do not spend time with outside of work.

Our manager has now doubled down, and whenever they spot us chatting to members of the other team outside of a meeting or when we have something else to do they ask us to return to our office. We can't even have lunch together anymore.

Feels sooooo petty and dramatic and like we're back at secondary school being separated from our friends, and I'm almost embarrassed to even bring it up with them at this point because we're working professionals, not children, but it is affecting both how we feel being essentially sequestered in our office at all hours of the day, but also how our team feels about our manager, who ordinarily is very relaxed and we love them. We're (my team+manager) going to a residential event in a few weeks with the other team and have been deliberately sat separately, our hotel rooms are floors apart, and our manager has asked us out for a drink in the evening (just to cover all angles!) so it appears really clear that communicating outside of work is a no-no now.

WWYD? AIBU to ask HR to have a word ahead of the event?

Your manager is being ridiculous.

But what you're doing outside of work hours with work colleagues IS spilling into work, and causing extra work for managers & HR.

I can see your manager's point, to be honest. You're all fairly young & inexperienced.

No your manager definitely can't dictate spending time with work colleagues/friends outside of work as long as your not representing the company. It would be very very different if it was for anything work related such as team building or organised through work officially such as Xmas party etc.

They also can't dictate who you spend lunch breaks with. But obviously if gossip or chatting to another team outside the remit of work during working hours is effecting work output then yes your manager is right to step in on these elements.

There is definitely a boundary and it's fine to spend time with people you like but agree keep the chat about it to outside office hours and be a bit more professional

You sound more like a bunch of teenagers than people in their twenties. Time to grow up. It’s very immature behaviour.

Next time they ask you what you’re up to at the weekend, just say socialising with friends. You don’t need to mention that it’s people from the company.

This is madness, of course you shouldn't be told who you can or can't sit with 😂Your age, and the age of your co-workers is irrelevant. There's no way I would entertain this for a second.

Whether or not this behaviour outside of work paints you in a bad light, is an entirelyy separate question. However, I don't see why it would? I work for a FTSE100 company, and we're periodically taken out (all teams and departments) and get wicked drunk, drinks paid for by the company. No-one would bat an eyelid if someone had a crush on someone, or someone else had an argument about chips 😂Sounds like there's something more going on to me. But whatever it is, it should be handled properly, not by telling random office workers who they can or can't be friends with!!

Also this 100%

I would guess the situation with the infatuation was more serious than you know as it is rightfully being kept confidential and that your manager is dealing with this.

Grow up and recognise that work is work - why make your manager’s life harder than it needs to be? It won’t help you in the long run.

This is interesting. Never knew you could have friends at large firms let alone another team (that you work with day in and out..)

There is also the possibility that there may be something else happening you're not aware of. Someone may have raised a grievance or a bullying accusation or something else that would make managers want to suggest a shift in the culture. Someone might be having alcohol problems foe example and suggesting to management that "a culture of hard partying" is in place around the team which makes the organisation a riskier and less professional place. Those are the first things off the top of my head but there could be loads.

You don't know everything that happens at work, because your employer has a duty of care to each one of you, but not to necessarily tell everything to everyone.

With great respect you are still young in your career and this petulant "it's like school!" attitude makes you look like you are at school. People at school are split up for reasons of duty of care, benefits for the wider group, etc - and you simply haven't twigged that grown ups sometimes have a bigger picture to consider.

It's lovely to be carefree but you need to grow up a bit and be aware of responsibilities which exist on a broader canvas than just your own fun, if you want to progress in your work.

Your manager obviously can't tell you who to have lunch with or what to do with your spare time.

But they likely have to report upwards and maybe the 'reputation' of the two teams involved is making things difficult for them - both personally and e.g. putting people forward for promotion would be harder if you are known as the young/unprofessional team.

Yes I think this is a really good point:

There is also the possibility that there may be something else happening you're not aware of. Someone may have raised a grievance or a bullying accusation or something else that would make managers want to suggest a shift in the culture.

There is probably a lot more dodgy office politics shit going on that you don't know about. Hence the caution from your manager.

I'm one of those people who naively thinks that all my colleagues are lovely normal people and then I get wind of some shocking news about someone who I thought would never put a foot wrong in life and that wasn't the case.

OP I've been the manager having to deal with this shit. The Monday morning I had a colleague in my office screaming she wouldn't work with Sandra anymore because Sandra had shagged her boyfriend in the loos of the nightclub everyone had gone to on Friday night was particularly memorable. What i find hilarious is the fact you think your manager doesn't come out because she's older. She doesn't come out because she doesn't want to see what you get up to because she has to work with you and doesn't want to be put in a position where she can judge your life choices outside of work. The fact you are bringing this crap into the work place means she is having to deal with it. If you can all keep your social lives/petty sqabbles out of work I'm sure she would thank you. HR having to get involved over what you describe as an infatuation is really concerning. You all sound like you need to grow up a bit.

Also if you're organising and/or talking about these nights out via work channels e.g. teams chats, I'd knock that on the head.

I would carry on exactly how you are and just keep nights out on the down-low from your boss. They can’t tell you who to see in your personal time. There could be a bit of jealousy involved. If you’re all young and close and having a ball on weekends and they’re older with a long commute and a baby at home they could be really envious. I would be.

Good lord, grow up!

I seriously thought your OP was a wind up.

I can’t believe the number of times you say you don’t want to be treated as if you are in primary school, secondary school, as children … and yet you are acting like a bunch of 15 year olds on work experience.

Keep your professional relationships professional. You are all a huge risk to your organisation, and I expect they are trying to figure out how to mitigate it.

I think you're downplaying what sounds like sexual harassment by a member of your team to a member of the other team. I can see why your manager might be coming down hard on this. They do not want a repeat performance.

I also think you're conflating two different things. No, your manager can't control who you invite to your house party. But they can dictate the schedule on a company trip away, paid for by the company, at which you are representing the company. That trip isn't a jolly for you and your mates in the other team; it's got a business purpose.

I'd also be asking myself whether the behaviour of your two teams matches the institution's culture as a whole. You (and maybe others) seem very invested in work as a source of social life but it's primarily not that - and it's certainly not that for your manager. Bringing up drunken snogs in the workplace isn't the office culture in most places - are you sure your work is as relaxed as you think it is?

I remember now why I didn't go to Christmas parties . Our company after two bad years of paying for everything and hearing about the shenanigans which filtered up to the CEO banned them

The not having lunch together sounds harsh but they might have a point re nights out and I can only go from personal experience where after a works night out on the Friday 2 of our team handed in their resignation on the Monday morning.
These were professional woman, who tbf disliked each other in work, but got into an almighty cat fight outside a bar with us all having to try and stop it. It was actually quite shocking to see.
Although this happened outside work we do have a part in our contract about bringing the company into disrepute so I'd imagine if they hadn't resigned they may well have been sacked.
This happened 20 years ago and is still spoke about in your office

If I'm totally honest I think some of your comments about snogs and barmy's suggest that some of your colleagues need to grow up a bit if you want to socialise with colleagues, but I agree this is not an issue for HR.

Lots of companies have policies about people in relationships not working together, and I would be very concerned if managers were involved in these activities together with junior team members, but otherwise you are all adults. Kind of.

But maybe try and snog random strangers rather than people from work, and avoid the barmy's all together? You're not students any more.

Your manager can't actually stop you mixing with anyone outside of work. And they can't discipline you if you do. However, it's absolutely right that this shouldn't spill over into your working life. If you had all had the maturity to not giggle round the water cooler about who snogged who, or the hilarious time A tried to nick B's chips, then your manager might have felt less like treating you all as naughty children. The company's concern may be that you are identifiable as a group of coworkers when you are out and who you work for. Given the lack of discretion at work it's not surprising

So maybe start behaving as adults, at work. What happens outside work stays outside. No arrangements made in work time, using work resources. No hangover stories on Monday.

I suspect that this is the case too.

You have seen snogs, arguments and an infatuation. But you don’t know what your boss has seen because hr complaints are confidential.

If your boss is usually really reasonable, then I’d start by thinking “what might make him act this way” and then assume that thing has happened.

I'm thinking this. They're jealous and trying to stop your fun. They can't stop you just because rowdy behaviour etc. MIGHT spill into the workplace. Remain professional at work, maybe forgo lunch with the other team and keep out of work meet ups on the downlow as it's none of their business.

I think you all need to keep what happens outside work, outside work. No chats about hangovers or who snogged who. Work can't stop you seeing each other outside work though.

It all seems a bit odd though - two groups of people all in their twenties having this much to do with each other that it's causing regular workplace angst. Does nobody have pre-existing friends who they socialise with instead?!