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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Ageism on Mumsnet (and in society)

450 replies

SusanandMidge · 27/07/2023 14:19

There's a discussion going on at the moment as to whether old people should be made move out of their family homes to free them up for younger couples (which thankfully no one on that particular thread is endorsing). However it's a topic that has come up a number of times on MN with many posters bitterly begrudging the fact that old people are 'hogging' family sized homes, or that their parents' house is now worth ten times what they paid for it in 1972.

I have also seen posters complaining about elderly people using the supermarket at weekends or being in the post office at lunchtime, because they should leave these busy times to working people; questioning why their teenagers should offer seats to elderly people who travel for free; and in many ways belittling and being unpleasant about the older generation.

I know all generations get their stereotyping but some of the ageism is really unpleasant. It's a minority of posters but their begrudging, bitter and hostile attitude towards the elderly can be really depressing to read.

OP posts:
Wahwahwahwahwah · 29/07/2023 12:05

Zippeedidodah · Today 11:50

Why am I being ridiculous? Why shouldn't elderly people who are still functioning normal lives and have capacity be put out their homes because a big family want to move in?

You're being ridiculous because you're suggesting that people are saying the answer is to kill off the elderly. Which not 1 single person is saying.

And the reason why I think big houses should go to big families is because we don't have enough homes to go around. So to fit everyone in I currently don't have a better solution. But no I don't think anyone should be locked out. Encouraged though? Yep

explainthistomeplease · 29/07/2023 12:08

@Wahwahwahwahwah or you could argue people should no longer be having big families. One or two children is sufficient surely?
Fwiw I'm not advocating that - you should be able to choose how large your family is. But it is a choice.

Wahwahwahwahwah · 29/07/2023 12:10

But if people don't ever have big families any more then who will pay the pensions of the future?

KimberleyClark · 29/07/2023 12:20

I have a friend who lives by herself in a four bed house which she inherited from her parents. She was their carer for a long time and I think she deserved the house It’s a 1970s semi and cannot be described as a large house, its footprint is less than my 1930s 3 bed semi. She uses one of the tiny bedrooms as an office and one as a sewing/ironing room. Why should she have to move to accommodate a family who had more kids than they could house?

Wahwahwahwahwah · 29/07/2023 12:21

That would be another way to screw over the people currently working in favour of those currently retired...

wutheringkites · 29/07/2023 12:25

explainthistomeplease · 29/07/2023 12:08

@Wahwahwahwahwah or you could argue people should no longer be having big families. One or two children is sufficient surely?
Fwiw I'm not advocating that - you should be able to choose how large your family is. But it is a choice.

But it is unusual to have more than two children now. Birth rates are declining and women have children later in life.

I'm pretty sure only 10-15% of households with children have 3+.

wutheringkites · 29/07/2023 12:29

CurlewKate · 29/07/2023 11:47

@wutheringkites "Yep, this. I hear every single age group maligned on here but only ever see threads complaining about ageism against older people."

Nothing stopping you starting a thread about reverse ageism. It's certainly something I've called out a couple of times.

Yeah I could, although judging by some of the things I've read on here lately, I think it would be more interesting to know why people think that not having children will solve our problems as a society.

The declining birth rate is a huge concern for governments around the world. My son was born in 2019 which saw the lowest ever birth rate ever in the UK.

From a climate perspective, it is probably a good thing, from a 'keeping society running' perspective, maybe not so much.

But I get the the feeling that a lot of posters here don't give a shit as long as it doesn't affect their triple locked pension.

Wahwahwahwahwah · 29/07/2023 12:31

@KimberleyClark because as a society we should care about trying to house everyone?

Olderandolder · 29/07/2023 12:35

Wahwahwahwahwah · 29/07/2023 12:05

Zippeedidodah · Today 11:50

Why am I being ridiculous? Why shouldn't elderly people who are still functioning normal lives and have capacity be put out their homes because a big family want to move in?

You're being ridiculous because you're suggesting that people are saying the answer is to kill off the elderly. Which not 1 single person is saying.

And the reason why I think big houses should go to big families is because we don't have enough homes to go around. So to fit everyone in I currently don't have a better solution. But no I don't think anyone should be locked out. Encouraged though? Yep

Because secure property rights are the basis of our society.

Without this, there is no reason to have a business, no reason to work hard. Once everyone realises they can’t rely on keeping their stuff, the economy stops working. There is usually poverty and hunger in the transition from a trading society to a govt controlled society.

Or more simply, if govt can take their stuff, then govt can take your stuff.

Societies where Govts can take people’s stuff end up being poor, unfair and dangerous.

Wahwahwahwahwah · 29/07/2023 12:35

But I get the the feeling that a lot of posters here don't give a shit as long as it doesn't affect their triple locked pension

Yup. And their lovely big 4 bed houses for 1 while they object to planning applications for new homes to be built nearby.

But yeah everyone should stop having kids so the older (richest ever!!!) generation can keep their lifestyle

Wahwahwahwahwah · 29/07/2023 12:37

@Olderandolder if you read my post I'm not suggesting old peoples' homes should be taken off them! Just they should be incentivised to do the right thing. And penalised if they don't.

KimberleyClark · 29/07/2023 12:42

Wahwahwahwahwah · 29/07/2023 12:37

@Olderandolder if you read my post I'm not suggesting old peoples' homes should be taken off them! Just they should be incentivised to do the right thing. And penalised if they don't.

Which is in effect forcing them……

Wahwahwahwahwah · 29/07/2023 12:51

It isn't though is it? They would have the choice to pay the tax or make the saving
And what do you suggest then? You think it's fair that a single elderly person lives alone in a big house while a family of 4 is trying to squeeze into a 1 bed flat which they could get evicted from at any time their landlord decides they want to sell? And that we shouldn't even try and persuade people to change the situation? And that those self same elderly people in those big houses have a triple locked pension, that everyone working is paying for, even though they themselves haven't had a rise of anywhere near the same amount? How about when they need carers to come in, say 4 times a day? Should that be funded from the taxes of those same people who have no secure home, and teeny pay rises too?
Or should younger people just have to stop having kids since there's nowhere for them to live? That way they would have no family, and no-one to fund pensions for them when they themselves finally (probably around the age of 70 if they make it that far) get to give up work?

Olderandolder · 29/07/2023 13:00

Wahwahwahwahwah · 29/07/2023 12:51

It isn't though is it? They would have the choice to pay the tax or make the saving
And what do you suggest then? You think it's fair that a single elderly person lives alone in a big house while a family of 4 is trying to squeeze into a 1 bed flat which they could get evicted from at any time their landlord decides they want to sell? And that we shouldn't even try and persuade people to change the situation? And that those self same elderly people in those big houses have a triple locked pension, that everyone working is paying for, even though they themselves haven't had a rise of anywhere near the same amount? How about when they need carers to come in, say 4 times a day? Should that be funded from the taxes of those same people who have no secure home, and teeny pay rises too?
Or should younger people just have to stop having kids since there's nowhere for them to live? That way they would have no family, and no-one to fund pensions for them when they themselves finally (probably around the age of 70 if they make it that far) get to give up work?

I have a big problem with tax funded care.

If the post war generation hadn’t been generous with the previous generation then savings, and innovation would have covered this. You can’t blame most for this, though some of the political leaders at the time were communist.

Starting from here, hard to know what to do. Don’t those who can pay already pay?

For those who can’t, I don’t see an alternative???? Lifting regulation could kick start innovation. What does Japan do?

Olderandolder · 29/07/2023 13:03

Wahwahwahwahwah · 29/07/2023 12:51

It isn't though is it? They would have the choice to pay the tax or make the saving
And what do you suggest then? You think it's fair that a single elderly person lives alone in a big house while a family of 4 is trying to squeeze into a 1 bed flat which they could get evicted from at any time their landlord decides they want to sell? And that we shouldn't even try and persuade people to change the situation? And that those self same elderly people in those big houses have a triple locked pension, that everyone working is paying for, even though they themselves haven't had a rise of anywhere near the same amount? How about when they need carers to come in, say 4 times a day? Should that be funded from the taxes of those same people who have no secure home, and teeny pay rises too?
Or should younger people just have to stop having kids since there's nowhere for them to live? That way they would have no family, and no-one to fund pensions for them when they themselves finally (probably around the age of 70 if they make it that far) get to give up work?

Life is hard for young people.

Protecting property rights is crucial to change that.

But no reason for taxpayer to pay for care for someone who has a house.

MIL told me that within the same home, state funded people are advantages over private payment. Stopping this would help.

Guiltyfeethavegotnorhythm0 · 29/07/2023 13:05

There is another thing that could be causing a housing shortage too that people seem to be ignoring . Single people never used to leave home until they got married . That has changed nowadays , people are living singly .That is also causing burden on housing stock . I know of one middle aged couple who bought a five bedroom house , do they need it ? Probably not but but I reckon that makes the idea of their retirement secure , people are afraid of not being secure in their old age .

Olderandolder · 29/07/2023 13:14

Guiltyfeethavegotnorhythm0 · 29/07/2023 13:05

There is another thing that could be causing a housing shortage too that people seem to be ignoring . Single people never used to leave home until they got married . That has changed nowadays , people are living singly .That is also causing burden on housing stock . I know of one middle aged couple who bought a five bedroom house , do they need it ? Probably not but but I reckon that makes the idea of their retirement secure , people are afraid of not being secure in their old age .

Totally identify with that.

Your principal private residence is your safest asset.

Build more.

SkylarSpirit · 29/07/2023 13:23

Ageism is a problem on MN, but on the other hand, I think sometimes people see ageism where none exists. For example if someone recounts something that happened and includes the fact the other person was young, was male/female, or was from another country/culture (as context for why their behaviour might differ from the OPs), no one says a word. If an OP mentions that the other person in a story was elderly, even if that's potentially important context (as generational differences do exist, and attitudes towards certain things do change) there's loads of comments saying it's ageist just to mention that the person was elderly.

There was a thread in Royal chat the other day discussing the fact certain posters start threads about the same topic on a daily basis, someone made a joke saying (paraphrased) "I bet those posters will still be scrolling their iPads in the nursing home starting the same threads on X subject when they're elderly" and someone kicked off and said that the perception of elderly people sitting in nursing homes scrolling iPads was ageist, but the post had nothing to do with being elderly, but the fact those specific posters (who most likely aren't elderly) are already doing that.

ShyMaryEllen · 29/07/2023 13:25

How would this dictatorship in which people have to give up the homes they've paid for actually work?

Will there be separate ghettos for single young people, the coupled-up but childless/childfree, small families, large families, the working with adult children who might need to come home for a while, the early retired who do a few hours a week and a shift or two at the foodbank, and pensioners, so that nobody has a house that someone else has deemed to be too big for them? Will Granny have to move again when Grandpa dies, even though they both left their lifetime home three years previously?

Who is going to build all of these developments, and what happens to the existing housing - will it only be 2 bed starter homes that survive the cull, as they are suitable for both the young and the old? Who gets to decide how big is 'too big'? Are we looking at an age of New Communism, where the State decides who can live where and controls personal freedoms? The trouble with that, is that being able to buy yourself out of staying put by paying punitive taxes is incompatible with Communism (in its pure and non-corrupt form, at least - perfectly fine in a State-controlled dictatorship, obviously).

What about second homes/Air B&Bs/holiday rentals? If people can't have a bedroom more than they 'need', can anyone have more than one house? And is that per couple or per person?

Who is going to live in houses in the middle of nowhere, if families don't want them because there are no facilities, but they are 'too big' for couples? Will we all be concentrated on housing estates in towns and cities?

Will there be transport between the ghettoes, so that grandparents can babysit and pick up grandchildren from schools and nurseries?

Will houses lose value when the owners are being forced to sell, and the buyers know that the vendors have to be out by a certain date? (NB that will apply to all the groups, so when a child is getting to 16 or so, the parents will have to be thinking about selling up when they reach adulthood).

What if the unthinkable happens and a child dies? Will the parents have to sell up immediately, or will there be a grace period?

When older parents have to sell to young families who have new mortgages and childcare expenses, so have to reduce the selling prices accordingly, how will this impact on the inheritance they can leave to their children? This might suit the New Communist regime, but it will require a huge shift in expectations for those expecting to inherit at some point.

What is the incentive going to be for anyone to buy a house if they know it will be taken from them down the line and is no longer going to be security in old age, (or even until when the first child leaves home)?

Will there be as much work for builders or decorators etc, when people heading for Eviction Day don't see the point in getting their paintwork done or the roof fixed for the sake of a couple of years? Will it just be those in the more settled stage of this Brave New World who can look ahead more than five years or so, with everyone else knowing they will soon have to move on to free up their accommodation for those in the relevant lifestage demographic.

What if when the time comes, you can't afford to move? Will it be ok to have a third child if you live in a 2 bed, when there are expectant parents looking for one, or is the compulsory sales in one direction only?

Will there be extra police on the Aged Persons' Ghettoes, or will they be left to fend for themselves against criminals who know where they live?

Or is the compulsory nature of this scheme only going to apply to the elderly who can't afford the punitive taxes, and every other age and financial group gets to choose where to live, have security of tenure in their own house and get to decide whether they need a spare room or not?

explainthistomeplease · 29/07/2023 13:33

What if the unthinkable happens and a child dies? Will the parents have to sell up immediately, or will there be a grace period?

When older parents have to sell to young families who have new mortgages and childcare expenses, so have to reduce the selling prices accordingly, how will this impact on the inheritance they can leave to their children? This might suit the New Communist regime, but it will require a huge shift in expectations for those expecting to inherit at some point.

What is the incentive going to be foranyoneto buy a house if they know it will be taken from them down the line and is no longer going to be security in old age, (or even until when the first child leaves home)?

Will there be as much work for builders or decorators etc, when people heading for Eviction Day don't see the point in getting their paintwork done or the roof fixed for the sake of a couple of years? Will it just be those in the more settled stage of this Brave New World who can look ahead more than five years or so, with everyone else knowing they will soon have to move on to free up their accommodation for those in the relevant lifestage demographic.

What if when the time comes, you can't afford to move? Will it be ok to have a third child if you live in a 2 bed, when there are expectant parents looking for one, or is the compulsory sales in one direction only?

Will there be extra police on the Aged Persons' Ghettoes, or will they be left to fend for themselves against criminals who know where they live?

I think you have just sketched out some excellent plot lines for a dystopian novel @ShyMaryEllen

ShyMaryEllen · 29/07/2023 13:35

I think you have just sketched out some excellent plot lines for a dystopian novel @ShyMaryEllen

😂

Well, maybe, but honestly - the idea just hasn't been thought through, has it?

Wahwahwahwahwah · 29/07/2023 14:14

@ShyMaryEllen the level of sneary sarcasm in your post shows how clever you think it is. But in reality all there would need to be is to cut stamp duty for people over a set age, maybe 60? If they are downsizing and an increase in council tax over a certain age (the same?) For under occupied houses. Along with even steeper council tax on 2nd homes or BTL.

CHIRIBAYA · 29/07/2023 14:17

'But that is not the fault of all older people. It is down to successive policies which are anti family and which prioritise wealthy investors and developers at the expense of ordinary citizens'

And who drives these 'successive policies' do you think? Governments voted in by predominantly older, Tory voters. Political agendas have been too heavily weighted to promotoing and protecting the rights of their core voter base, the elderly. The fact that universal access to free prescriptions and bus travel has not been removed is testament to this. How does one go about addressing the serious inter-generational inequality we have in this country without being jumped on as ageist? The discussion needs to be had or the anger among the young will just grow and quite rightly so. Young people in this country are being let down in far more ways than just access to affordable housing. Have you any idea how little investment goes into children's mental health? This is the generation that will have to work to support our ageing population but many of them will need ongoing mental health support themselves due to the lack of earlier intervention when it would have made a difference.

Wiccan · 29/07/2023 14:21

ShyMaryEllen · 29/07/2023 13:25

How would this dictatorship in which people have to give up the homes they've paid for actually work?

Will there be separate ghettos for single young people, the coupled-up but childless/childfree, small families, large families, the working with adult children who might need to come home for a while, the early retired who do a few hours a week and a shift or two at the foodbank, and pensioners, so that nobody has a house that someone else has deemed to be too big for them? Will Granny have to move again when Grandpa dies, even though they both left their lifetime home three years previously?

Who is going to build all of these developments, and what happens to the existing housing - will it only be 2 bed starter homes that survive the cull, as they are suitable for both the young and the old? Who gets to decide how big is 'too big'? Are we looking at an age of New Communism, where the State decides who can live where and controls personal freedoms? The trouble with that, is that being able to buy yourself out of staying put by paying punitive taxes is incompatible with Communism (in its pure and non-corrupt form, at least - perfectly fine in a State-controlled dictatorship, obviously).

What about second homes/Air B&Bs/holiday rentals? If people can't have a bedroom more than they 'need', can anyone have more than one house? And is that per couple or per person?

Who is going to live in houses in the middle of nowhere, if families don't want them because there are no facilities, but they are 'too big' for couples? Will we all be concentrated on housing estates in towns and cities?

Will there be transport between the ghettoes, so that grandparents can babysit and pick up grandchildren from schools and nurseries?

Will houses lose value when the owners are being forced to sell, and the buyers know that the vendors have to be out by a certain date? (NB that will apply to all the groups, so when a child is getting to 16 or so, the parents will have to be thinking about selling up when they reach adulthood).

What if the unthinkable happens and a child dies? Will the parents have to sell up immediately, or will there be a grace period?

When older parents have to sell to young families who have new mortgages and childcare expenses, so have to reduce the selling prices accordingly, how will this impact on the inheritance they can leave to their children? This might suit the New Communist regime, but it will require a huge shift in expectations for those expecting to inherit at some point.

What is the incentive going to be for anyone to buy a house if they know it will be taken from them down the line and is no longer going to be security in old age, (or even until when the first child leaves home)?

Will there be as much work for builders or decorators etc, when people heading for Eviction Day don't see the point in getting their paintwork done or the roof fixed for the sake of a couple of years? Will it just be those in the more settled stage of this Brave New World who can look ahead more than five years or so, with everyone else knowing they will soon have to move on to free up their accommodation for those in the relevant lifestage demographic.

What if when the time comes, you can't afford to move? Will it be ok to have a third child if you live in a 2 bed, when there are expectant parents looking for one, or is the compulsory sales in one direction only?

Will there be extra police on the Aged Persons' Ghettoes, or will they be left to fend for themselves against criminals who know where they live?

Or is the compulsory nature of this scheme only going to apply to the elderly who can't afford the punitive taxes, and every other age and financial group gets to choose where to live, have security of tenure in their own house and get to decide whether they need a spare room or not?

This^

explainthistomeplease · 29/07/2023 14:21

@Wahwahwahwahwah I totally agree second homes should be financially hammered. That's as far as I'd go, and see how that would change the housing landscape. Considerably in some areas (like my own) I suspect.
Likewise see that ownership of empty homes is penalised.

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