Ageism on Mumsnet (and in society)

[SusanandMidge]

There's a discussion going on at the moment as to whether old people should be made move out of their family homes to free them up for younger couples (which thankfully no one on that particular thread is endorsing). However it's a topic that has come up a number of times on MN with many posters bitterly begrudging the fact that old people are 'hogging' family sized homes, or that their parents' house is now worth ten times what they paid for it in 1972.

I have also seen posters complaining about elderly people using the supermarket at weekends or being in the post office at lunchtime, because they should leave these busy times to working people; questioning why their teenagers should offer seats to elderly people who travel for free; and in many ways belittling and being unpleasant about the older generation.

I know all generations get their stereotyping but some of the ageism is really unpleasant. It's a minority of posters but their begrudging, bitter and hostile attitude towards the elderly can be really depressing to read.

@Oldnproud Online shopping doesn't exist here yet (large and sparsely populated country). It doesn't bother me especially, it was an example used by the OP. When I was a student in the UK I avoided going shopping on Saturdays, and I actually think going out at off-peak times is a pretty cool perk for those who don't work 9-5.

Weekend shoppers are unlikely to need help as help costs more on weekends (former care assistant here). And we're talking about 70 year olds driving to supermarkets, not 90 year olds hobbling there with a walking frame.

Older people were also younger once. The majority of people have had different struggles at different times in their lives and at different life stages regardless of when they were born. Some of the struggles that currently affect younger people also affect older people; energy prices, cost of living, mortgage rates, difficulty accessing healthcare, no NHS dentists etc. A high proportion of people also have children and if old enough, grandchildren and can see beyond their own nose and have concerns about their future world.

Re the triple lock - why would any pensioner want something removed which would be of benefit to following generations? It’s not as if the state pension is even that generous, and unless you have been on benefits, the state pension entitlement relates to how many years of contributions you have made via working or voluntary contributions. There are better ways to cut government spending than putting retired people into poverty which will then have an impact on health and an additional impact on NHS.

Downsizing - do any of us really want to live with a government telling owner occupiers as to what size property they can live in? Dictating how to spend our money at a certain age, or stage of life due to the associated costs of downsizing. Making couples share a bedroom and move into 1 bedroomed boxes. No space to look after grandchildren. Tear people away from somewhere they have lived for decades, have social ties to and a support network.

Does 1984 spring to mind for anyone else?

Agism is rife on here at times and there is so much hate for baby boomers, who appear to be grouped with anyone else who is older who are the forgotten generation. ‘Boomers’ has generally become a derogatory term, along with the likes of ‘Karen’. We are not showering ourselves with glory by pitting people against each other. Not one of us had any choice about when we were born and if we are fortunate we will also become old.

Regardless of age we should all be looking to push our elected representatives to improve the lot of everyone. Do we really want a race to the bottom?

@Allthings Agree on all points.

As pp have said, it's not individuals who are the problem, it's the elected representatives over the years who have failed to act, primarily by allowing the housing market to become too expensive, and by allowing the sell off of (and failing to replace) social housing. Also the UK is one of the few countries in the world which doesn't have a residency qualification to buy property, which encourages speculators and pushes prices up. It didn't control development of bungalows into (effectively) adding rooms in roofs and extra bedrooms which mean they are the same price and size of a house, or by encouraging the building of small residences suited to older or disabled owners, so even if they want to move (as my parents are keen to do), there is little choice and what there is, means effectively swapping a big house for a small one at the same price.

Once everybody's wages are swallowed by large housing costs, whether rent or mortgage, there is little spare money to save for a deposit or a pension. Those already pensioned find rising prices have made their 'downsize' just as expensive as the property they have, and so the system just operates to make things worse for everyone.

But allowing that resentment to spill over into discrimination isn't the answer. Of course, politicians are happy to see division because that energy isn't being directed at them, because they are the ones who have let the situation arise, not your grandmother rattling around in a family-sized house.

This is the most intelligent ,thought out comment on this thread !

@Allthings

A very sensible post.

Well said, @Allthings .

Where oh where is the class analysis?! I agree that the young are being royally screwed over right now, but the idea that the blame lies with everyone born before 1965 is fucking nuts. There are poor people being screwed over in every generation.

I'm a Boomer (just). The idea that we all live in detached gaffs in Surrey, and retired at 50, is just bizarre. It's like thinking all Victorians had lovely homes with butlers.

I'll tell you what I'm doing: raising my kids solo, working FT, and caring for someone with Alzheimers. My mother is still working, too, and caring for a friend who has disabilities. My grandmother is also still with us, ekeing out her state pension in a tiny shabby home in an area she doesn't want to live in.

All of us were raised poor, were single parents, worked full time, and have contributed a vast amount of unpaid labour to the UK economy. There are zillions of older women around like this: missed out on the educational and career opportunities now available, faced repressive sexist attitudes, never built up wealth because of sexism and caring responsibilities, often struggling on in later life to wipe everyone's bottoms...

There are people in power who absolutely love the idea of intergenerational warfare, of course they do. Everybody who natters on about golf-playing boomers or avocado-smashing millennials is playing right into their hands.

@Ketzele 👏

It is fair comment because pensioners in the UK are, overall, the richest part of society. Our society has been structured towards that.

Bleating on about pension contributions is absurd. Its based on the idea that pensioners are poor. That was very true in the 1980s. That was 40 years ago.

40 years ago of women working, being able to have their own pension and property. If you are hitting 60 now and say you are relying on the state pension, where was your amazing youth? Where you could have made money? When housing was relatively cheap and social provision greater?

Young people find it tiresome to hear their older relatives go on about this stuff because it is of zero relevance to their lives now. Cease the navel gazing.

Stuff the triple lock pension. Inflation linked education budgets.

I also wouldn't want go back to even the eighties when pensioners were dying of hypothermia ,and Edwina Currie was telling them to knit wolly hats and have flasks of soup . I was a teenager at the time , fuck that .

Yeah, you're right, I much prefer the child poverty which is, and always has been, higher than pensioner poverty.

If the mid 90s, pensioner poverty was about 28%. Child poverty was around 33%. Now? Pensioner poverty is at 15% and child poverty is at 27%.

But it's not like we hate children in this country, right?

Oh wait...

@Zippeedidodah says Wait until they get old themselves, I'd imagine it will be worse for them when their mannerless selfish brats grow up.

https://www.jrf.org.uk/data/overall-uk-poverty-rates

No body hates children for gods sake .

Then why are you bleating on about something you saw in the 80s when millions of children are going without food in this country today?

If there's ageism, it isn't against the old.

Zippeedidodah · Today 19:30

Wait until they get old themselves, I'd imagine it will be worse for them when their mannerless selfish brats grow up.

Nice example of agism there. Classy.

My DFIL would love to sell his 4bed detached in a London commuter belt and downsize to a 2 bed bungalow. Bungalows are at a huge premium and he would be paying the same price with solicitors/ moving costs on top so it's just not sensible. His house is worth £580k. He'd love to be able to have more disposable cash and to give to his dc. I think there needs to be more incentives for over 70's to sell like no stamp duty.

Child poverty is an absolute disgrace as is pensioner poverty. In the sixth or seventh richest country in the world there’s no excuse for either. Intergenerational warfare won’t solve it, it’s the distraction politicians are delighted you’re looking at while they’re busy stuffing their pockets and their cronies’ with our taxes.

@Blossomtoes

You're totally right.

Hey, older people, any chance you would consider not voting Tory next time? Cheers.

I’ve never voted Tory in my life - and my very first vote was to join the EU in 1975.

I wasn't directing it at you personally, but over 65s do vote Tory.

In the last general election, 60% of votes cast by over 65s went to the Tories.

So, you know, not doing that could help if the 'elites' are the real problem.

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/21/age-not-class-is-what-divides-british-voters-most

Maybe if younger people actually voted it might help. Just a thought.

https://www.britishelectionstudy.com/bes-findings/age-and-voting-behaviour-at-the-2019-general-election/

Yeah, fair. Personally I would love to see the introduction of compulsory voting and a switch to PR.

But it won't happen because the Tories and the people who vote for them don't want young people to vote.

@wutheringkites
If the mid 90s, pensioner poverty was about 28%. Child poverty was around 33%. Now? Pensioner poverty is at 15% and child poverty is at 27%.

Child poverty around 33% in the mid 1990s? Interesting. Many of those children would have had Boomer parents who were clearly were not rich.

I don't really care if it's ageism, old people should not be occupying council homes. Homes they brought I don't have an issue with.

But what is your point here @Oldnproud ?

Child poverty around 33% in the mid 1990s? Interesting. Many of those children would have had Boomer parents who were clearly were not rich.