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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not side with Sis over her ex

302 replies

PrFi · 26/07/2023 11:09

My sis & her ex (bil) were together 22 years & about 2 years ago they separated, they never married & have 2 DD 17 & 19. Prior to their separation we were always together as a foursome & saw each other several times a week plus my DH & he are very close friends. Their split was amicable & mutual, both just decided that relationship had run its course but we were all naturally upset about it. Bil moved into a flat that he owns & sis stayed in house, the house is bil’s (inherited from his parents) but he wanted kids to stay in their home so he moved out. My sis doesn’t work & bil has been paying bills, all child expenses, her credit card, her private pension & healthcare since he left but he now says once DD leaves for uni this will all stop as he’s not bank rolling her anymore & he has told my sis that once youngest DD turns 18 & leaves for uni he wants his house back. He has also met someone else which I did know about but didn’t say anything to sis as he said wasn’t sure how serious it was plus it’s not my business. Anyway all hell has broken loose now & my sis is threatening all sorts but main problem is that she has asked me to cut him off completely, he’s not to come to our home or speak to us on phone, we’re not to meet up socially or invite him to any functions etc. I don’t agree we should as he is my niece’s Dad & has done absolutely nothing wrong & he is very much part of our lives still but if I don’t I could lose my sis..I’m torn but I don’t think she’s right to expect this from us

OP posts:
Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 26/07/2023 15:12

Your sister is being rather foolish, and I think your exasperation is understandable. She seems just to have thought that things (financially) would go on regardless, in spite of the fact that they agreed to split mutually and amicably. I can’t understand how they didn’t sit down and work out the seperation ‘settlement’ when they spilt, but it seems that BIL offer of support was sufficient.

Well, ‘sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof ’ , as DSis is now finding. All the moral questions and emotional and familial grandstanding by PP are in my view, irrelevant to your question.

You have to persuade your sister to act in her own best interests ( there’s a first time for everything). She needs to persuade her XDP to make some sort of settlement , the best bet for this is to get the flat signed over to her as a lifetime interest. Your BIL in your account sounds quite pleasant, he might do this if he was asked pleasantly ( but not if he’s being harangued, who would?)

Anyway, I think that your DH keeping good relations with the XDP is probably the best thing you can do for your sister, since it is a pleasant and uncontentious channel of communication. He can be an advocate for her while the XDP still values his friendship.

whumpthereitis · 26/07/2023 15:12

WomblingTree86 · 26/07/2023 15:07

You say that he has done nothing wrong but he's actually taking advantage of the fact that they weren't married which isn't that nice. They were together for 22 years and she probably did a lot more than him in bringing up his children. If he had married her he would have to give her half the house. She clearly didn't realise that being unmarried put her at a massive disadvantage but I bet he did.

At what point is she responsible for her own choices?

She had their children, which presumably she wanted as well. She was only able to do that because he was willing and able to finance that. He also financed in-home childcare, and her overall lifestyle. Since splitting he’s paid off her debts and housed her. He’s offering to house her again, rent free. Oh, and she has savings which, considering she hasn’t worked for twenty years, likely are courtesy of him.

and no, even if married she may not have been entitled to half his house, or more than what she has already left with.

SavvyMaria · 26/07/2023 15:15

Team Sister.

You ex BIL has all those assets yet the woman he had shared his life and 2 children with for decades gets nothing. I don't know the law relating to this in England(?) but morally it seems very unjust.

I think he should sign the flat over to her and stop any other financial assistance. She should get a job.

I'm shocked at the response on this, pp's blaming sister for not getting married as if you can force someone to marry you.

GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing · 26/07/2023 15:17

I absolutely also think that she should be given the flat/similar.

I think this too.

She needs somewhere to live, and even if she did have an au pair (they can’t do that much!) she has raised his two children.

I don’t think I’d want to see the mother/ father of my child left with no secure accommodation whilst I had more than one property- even if the kids were grown.

GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing · 26/07/2023 15:18

SavvyMaria · 26/07/2023 15:15

Team Sister.

You ex BIL has all those assets yet the woman he had shared his life and 2 children with for decades gets nothing. I don't know the law relating to this in England(?) but morally it seems very unjust.

I think he should sign the flat over to her and stop any other financial assistance. She should get a job.

I'm shocked at the response on this, pp's blaming sister for not getting married as if you can force someone to marry you.

Exactly. Just the flat and then she gets a job to support herself. That seems fair.

BoohooWoohoo · 26/07/2023 15:24

SavvyMaria · 26/07/2023 15:15

Team Sister.

You ex BIL has all those assets yet the woman he had shared his life and 2 children with for decades gets nothing. I don't know the law relating to this in England(?) but morally it seems very unjust.

I think he should sign the flat over to her and stop any other financial assistance. She should get a job.

I'm shocked at the response on this, pp's blaming sister for not getting married as if you can force someone to marry you.

The law in England is that she can only get Child Maintenance from the point that they split up until the kids complete the equivalent of A-level education (age 18) No spousal or splitting of assets since English law does not recognise "common law" spouses. Free rent and £60k pa in credit card bills paid is an amazing deal. Bet he'd pay removal fees so he can move back into his home.

PrFi · 26/07/2023 15:26

I think I’m going to speak to him directly; I think he should give her the flat & it’s very possible he was going to, I do not agree with my sis that she should get the house or half of it as that was his family home & he should have that. She has a very good pension that he’s paid & she has some savings so she will have to face facts & get a job. If he disagrees then I will discuss the option of buying her a smaller flat so she doesn’t have to worry about housing

OP posts:
whumpthereitis · 26/07/2023 15:27

SavvyMaria · 26/07/2023 15:15

Team Sister.

You ex BIL has all those assets yet the woman he had shared his life and 2 children with for decades gets nothing. I don't know the law relating to this in England(?) but morally it seems very unjust.

I think he should sign the flat over to her and stop any other financial assistance. She should get a job.

I'm shocked at the response on this, pp's blaming sister for not getting married as if you can force someone to marry you.

She chose to have children with him knowing they weren’t married. She chose to give up her job knowing they weren’t married. She chose to not look for work after they split, knowing he wasn’t obliged to continue supporting her.

She can’t force him to marry her, no, but he didn’t force her to do any of the above.

Dacquoises · 26/07/2023 15:30

PrFi · 26/07/2023 15:26

I think I’m going to speak to him directly; I think he should give her the flat & it’s very possible he was going to, I do not agree with my sis that she should get the house or half of it as that was his family home & he should have that. She has a very good pension that he’s paid & she has some savings so she will have to face facts & get a job. If he disagrees then I will discuss the option of buying her a smaller flat so she doesn’t have to worry about housing

That's great and really the only sensible solution going forward. There seems to be so much emotion flying about (on this post too!) but at the end of the day she needs housing and to get a job! Both parties need to compromise.

Harrythehappypig · 26/07/2023 15:32

He was a smart cookie not to get married. Was your sis the primary carer? My friend is currently divorcing a man whose work pattern made working for her not impossible but difficult. He’s senior management now while she compromised in the roles she took. Luckily she was actually married but he’s made it clear he things she is taking “his” money.

ScribblingPixie · 26/07/2023 15:33

That sounds sensible, PrFi. He can afford it, and he'll be looking at years of rancour plus distress for his children if he doesn't make sure their mother has a secure home at the end of their family life together.

NeedToChangeName · 26/07/2023 15:35

This is a cautionary tale for people who think that marriage is old fashioned

Your ex BIL has been generous, but i still have some sympathy for your sister. I've seen this before. Couple agree wife / female partner will stop work. They separate when children are late teens. Husband / male partner then expects wife to support herself, when she hasn't worked for years

It's fine that your DH is still on good terms with ex BIL

If ex BIL and sister aren't currently on good terms, then no way should he attend a family party. I'm a bit surprised you don't see this

FrippEnos · 26/07/2023 15:35

SavvyMaria · 26/07/2023 15:15

Team Sister.

You ex BIL has all those assets yet the woman he had shared his life and 2 children with for decades gets nothing. I don't know the law relating to this in England(?) but morally it seems very unjust.

I think he should sign the flat over to her and stop any other financial assistance. She should get a job.

I'm shocked at the response on this, pp's blaming sister for not getting married as if you can force someone to marry you.

Presumably the 2 children will get their university bills paid for.

Whatever posters think about what he is doing to his ex (which amounts to what posters tell other women to do if they own a property, money or inherit) there is no indication that his children are being left out.

But then various posters have been quite happy to make up stories about the relationship.

FrippEnos · 26/07/2023 15:37

PrFi · 26/07/2023 15:26

I think I’m going to speak to him directly; I think he should give her the flat & it’s very possible he was going to, I do not agree with my sis that she should get the house or half of it as that was his family home & he should have that. She has a very good pension that he’s paid & she has some savings so she will have to face facts & get a job. If he disagrees then I will discuss the option of buying her a smaller flat so she doesn’t have to worry about housing

I think that you will need to be very careful about how you phrase all of that.

PrFi · 26/07/2023 15:39

He’s very reasonable (obviously given her situation over last couple of years) tbh he didn’t say she wasn’t getting anything just that he wanted his house back & no more credit cards/household bills. She’s still got a while anyway as niece isn’t 18 until April My sis seems to think he will continue to pay her private healthcare as the policy is joint/family & it’s easier for him to leave her on there.

OP posts:
FloydPepper · 26/07/2023 15:40

FrippEnos · 26/07/2023 15:35

Presumably the 2 children will get their university bills paid for.

Whatever posters think about what he is doing to his ex (which amounts to what posters tell other women to do if they own a property, money or inherit) there is no indication that his children are being left out.

But then various posters have been quite happy to make up stories about the relationship.

Yep. Bits of this thread are peak mumsnet

women with assets are advised not to marry on here all the time. He’s not done anything wrong, yet posters are still contorting themselves to make him a villain in all this.

Newestname002 · 26/07/2023 15:42

So from what I can gather "BIL" is already being quite generous, so:

£5K monthly towards credit card bills x2 years = £120K plus

All utilities plus (I'm assuming council tax as well) plus

He pays into a good pension for her plus

He pays all the children's expenses (rightly) plus

He pays her private healthcare scheme

Additionally OP says she has a good level savings of her own.

He's suggested she moves into his current three bed garden flat (I've not seen if this was rent free or a very low rent) and has reacted badly to that.

I've read enough threads on MN to see this is definitely not the norm when unmarried partners separate.

OP's sister really needs to face reality and look to getting a job to help support herself. She's had two years to address this but is so entitled that she's just buried her head in the sand and decided she prefers to be kept to the standard she's becoming used to since she gave up her job (in 2010?). Sadly real life isn't like that and hopefully she'll come to that decision sooner rather than later. 🌹

PrFi · 26/07/2023 15:43

FrippEnos · 26/07/2023 15:35

Presumably the 2 children will get their university bills paid for.

Whatever posters think about what he is doing to his ex (which amounts to what posters tell other women to do if they own a property, money or inherit) there is no indication that his children are being left out.

But then various posters have been quite happy to make up stories about the relationship.

Oh gosh yes, he is covering uni fees & rent & living expenses for oldest & will do same for you youngest when her time comes. They both have new cars (although youngest hasn’t passed test yet) & an allowance so they are well provided for, no doubt he will help them buy somewhere when they decide to do that

OP posts:
FairAcre · 26/07/2023 15:44

How would you feel if it was the other way around. Your husband and you had split and he had moved on with another woman and your sister chose his feelings over yours? I expect you would be posting on MN how unfair she was being.

AcrossthePond55 · 26/07/2023 15:44

@PrFi

So let me see if I've got this right. During their relationship he offered/asked to marry her and she turned him down. At the time of their separation he said he'd pay the bills until the youngest 'left home' but didn't specify exactly what that meant. To my way of thinking these are the only two 'faults' I see.

All that happened in-between was done 'in good faith' with both of them believing the relationship would last forever. Yes, perhaps her decision to become financially dependent on him was made 'in good faith' but the minute she felt the relationship wasn't working for her or she felt him 'pulling away' she should have started planning her financial independence, even if he did say "I'll take care of you". And yes, he should have spelled out exactly what he meant by 'the youngest leaves home'. Especially since in these days so many young people DON'T 'leave home' permanently when they go off to Uni. These days I think it's probably more the norm that they end up back at home at least until they've found a job that allows them to live independently. But I digress.

Does he 'morally' owe her the flat? No, he doesn't. He 'offered' her the flat in a manner of speaking when he offered to marry her and to vow 'with all my worldly goods I thee endow' or however it's phrased these days (assuming there was no mention of a pre-nup). When she chose to live in a cohabiting relationship without some type of legally binding cohabitation agreement rather than accept the protections that marriage gives she gave up the right to be 'owed' anything. If he chooses to give her the flat, he'd be doing it purely out of the goodness of his heart, not because he 'owes' her anything. And frankly, her attitude now means she's cutting off her nose to spite her face. And that's not his fault either. Personally, I don't think I'd speak to him about it. If he raised the issue I'd give my opinion, but I wouldn't start the conversation. And I certainly wouldn't suggest that he buy her anything.

When will women (and men) learn that in the end we need to be able to take care of ourselves, even if we don't 'have to? Either by continuing to work or by getting the education and/or the certifications to allow us to return to work if necessary. My friend stopped work to be a SAHP and her husband walked out leaving her with 2 small DC. Her bacon was saved by the fact that she had a professional degree and had kept her license current by working one day a week. She was able to return to full time work at a very good wage. I continued to work because we needed and wanted two incomes, but I also had the security of knowing that if DH had decided to dump me (or vice versa) I would still have been able to support myself and DC, even if at a 'smaller but still comfortable lifestyle'.

I wouldn't cut the ex off as a friend nor would I demand my DH do so. But I do think he now needs to be excluded from family events. He's no longer 'family' in the real sense of the word. See him when Sis is not around, but don't rub her nose in it by expecting her to sit down to dinner with him, even if she is in the wrong and being stubborn about it. Their DC will just need to get used to the fact that Dad is no longer a part of the 'family circle' even if he is still in the 'friendship circle'.

JohnnyYenSetHimselfOnFireAgain · 26/07/2023 15:45

FloydPepper · 26/07/2023 15:40

Yep. Bits of this thread are peak mumsnet

women with assets are advised not to marry on here all the time. He’s not done anything wrong, yet posters are still contorting themselves to make him a villain in all this.

Exactly, 100% this.

JohnnyYenSetHimselfOnFireAgain · 26/07/2023 15:48

FairAcre · 26/07/2023 15:44

How would you feel if it was the other way around. Your husband and you had split and he had moved on with another woman and your sister chose his feelings over yours? I expect you would be posting on MN how unfair she was being.

Considering everything the OP has posted I wouldn't expect that at all.

Honeychickpea · 26/07/2023 15:50

Presumably your BIL encouraged your sister to gave up her career, raised the DC and look after the home so he could progress in his career.
I have never known a man to do that. In all the cases I know, it was always that the woman wanted to give up work, it had nothing to do with facilitating her partner's career.

PrFi · 26/07/2023 15:52

Honeychickpea · 26/07/2023 15:50

Presumably your BIL encouraged your sister to gave up her career, raised the DC and look after the home so he could progress in his career.
I have never known a man to do that. In all the cases I know, it was always that the woman wanted to give up work, it had nothing to do with facilitating her partner's career.

The presumption is entirely wrong anyway

OP posts:
jolaylasofia · 26/07/2023 15:56

i don't understand how he just randomly owns a flat and an inherited house and she has absolutely nothing. Why wasn't the flat put in both names if they were together for so long? She looked after his children whilst he earned money to buy the flat presumably and if they were married she'd be entitled to half of everything. what other assets does he have?

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