To not side with Sis over her ex

[PrFi]

My sis & her ex (bil) were together 22 years & about 2 years ago they separated, they never married & have 2 DD 17 & 19. Prior to their separation we were always together as a foursome & saw each other several times a week plus my DH & he are very close friends. Their split was amicable & mutual, both just decided that relationship had run its course but we were all naturally upset about it. Bil moved into a flat that he owns & sis stayed in house, the house is bil’s (inherited from his parents) but he wanted kids to stay in their home so he moved out. My sis doesn’t work & bil has been paying bills, all child expenses, her credit card, her private pension & healthcare since he left but he now says once DD leaves for uni this will all stop as he’s not bank rolling her anymore & he has told my sis that once youngest DD turns 18 & leaves for uni he wants his house back. He has also met someone else which I did know about but didn’t say anything to sis as he said wasn’t sure how serious it was plus it’s not my business. Anyway all hell has broken loose now & my sis is threatening all sorts but main problem is that she has asked me to cut him off completely, he’s not to come to our home or speak to us on phone, we’re not to meet up socially or invite him to any functions etc. I don’t agree we should as he is my niece’s Dad & has done absolutely nothing wrong & he is very much part of our lives still but if I don’t I could lose my sis..I’m torn but I don’t think she’s right to expect this from us

"As far as I know they seriously discussed it when the girls were really young but decided it wasn’t worth the fuss (her words) my sister finds romance really cringeworthy so she’d hate a proposal, would want the ground to swallow her up she said but when we have mentioned it subsequently over the years she always just said she can’t be arsed with all that fuss."

Jumping to conclusions much? 🙄

Not necessarily. Depending on how the family wealth was managed, she wouldn’t have necessarily been entitled to much from it at all (and I’m not just referring to pre nuptial agreements). Hell, he may in fact himself be prevented from giving her what you consider to be her due.

the ‘morality’ argument can be spun in plenty of ways - is it moral that she benefit from generational wealth she didn’t in fact generate?

Morality is an individual judgement that will vary wildly depending on the individual you ask, but what matters is the law. She bottom line is she didn’t marry him, yet chose to have children with him and give up work. She didn’t even get back into employment when the relationship ended, and instead expected him to continue supporting her on top of supporting their children. All of that is on her.

Be wary of the charming man.Your loyalties lie with your sister here OP, things have changed and you need to move on. Perhaps take some time to think about why you are casting him in the role as the good guy in all of this, given that the relationship ended by mutual agreement . He may indeed be the personification of all that is good but it may also be that you exasperated by her head in the sand approach , jealous of her previous good fortune or in thrall to her ex. I’ve seen this classic manipulation before , where the in-laws rally around the ex, including the ex in family events, and blame the sibling.

My sympathy is with your sister. Yes she has been very foolish for not marrying if she was a stay at home parent ( assuming that her ex would have agreed of course- he may have been protecting his assets ). However that goes both ways, she was foolish but he assumed financial responsibility . Your DSis was I assume a full time mother and her future earning capacity is likely to be very low having been out of the work force for so long. It’s not easy to snap your fingers and find a job when you’ve been at home for so long- confidence and skills are likely to be low.

It’s likely she will need to move , support her in up skilling , she could probably do with counselling/ life coaching . She should take legal advice- I’m not in the U.K. but in Ireland there is a redress scheme to protect a financially dependent member of the couple if the long-term cohabiting ends.

@MargaretBall there's no redress scheme in the UK, you're just screwed if you depend on someone financially without getting married, then you split. There are threads on here that are a nightmare - woman has given up work to raise kids, or even works for the family business without proper pay, then gets booted out for a younger woman and has no home, pension, means of earning etc. And absolutely no claim on the man.

Sadly she should have taken legal advice when she set up home with someone without getting married. It's fine to do that but you should always protect yourself against the possibility of splitting.

I've read all your posts now, OP, and I don't think your BIL is the good guy in all this at all. You say he's extremely wealthy, seems to own two homes yet after 20+ years and two children he's wanting her to walk away with nothing? I think you should support her in trying to get security for herself before she even considers leaving her home, and if you have influence with your BIL use it. It seems like you want to label her a mug rather than, presumably, a trusting partner in a long-term committed relationship. Why?

Can I just double check this - he's spending £60k a year on her credit card bills? For the last 3 years?

My sis wasn’t forced to give up work, the first thing she told me when they learned details of the inheritance was that she can’t wait to give up work so & they had an au pair after the inheritance so she didn’t do a great deal of childcare. We all told her that she inheriting nothing so she should get a p/t job & save it all but she chose not to. And I always got the impression that he would have been happy to marry my sis but she wasn’t bothered so I doubt he had a plan not to marry her because of an inheritance he may or may not get at some point in the future. I have told her to get legal advise but she said she won’t get anything.

You will always have a place in your nieces' lives through your sister so cannot use that as an excuse to stay in touch with him. I have been in a similar situation but ultimately my sister's hurt at us staying in touch with the ex was more important to me than keeping in touch with him. If he was still single then I could understand it but not if there is now another woman involved.

I don’t know if every year but I know her last 3 bills totalled £12k or thereabouts unless she’s not telling me the truth but she wasn’t bragging about it so I had no reason to disbelieve her

She is your sister though, it’s her you should back. It’s not even at the worst part yet op. When she finds out he has a girlfriend and he kicks her out next year because the kids have gone uni, if it all works out with this girlfriend you can bet your life he will move her into the house after a few months. That’s when it’s all going to hit the fan, when she realises she’s been complaining and utterly replaced.

Completely*

Her decision not to work while together was taken by both of them at the time, so she can't take all of the blame .

But it's her fault she hasn't got a job since.

And also, she should not have been a sahm without marriage

Your sisters ex sounds like a really decent man who's been more than generous to her;your nieces are over 16 and don't require childcare;there is literally no reason whatsoever for your sister not to work other than utter laziness.

And no you shouldn't cut him off;he's your DH's long term friend,your nieces dad and hasn't done anything wrong to warrant being cut off either.

For context I get on really well still with my nieces mum and we're still good friends 10 years down the line after she and my DB split.

There are children involved here. The OP's neices. I would say neices over sister - every time.

That's the line I would take OP - think of how she will damage her relationship with her kids if she behaves to their father like this. Tell her you love and her kids and that is the reason you are not cutting her ex off. Tell her one day she will be glad she has maintained a reasonable relatiosnhip with her ex - when they attend the weddings of their daughter or if they have grandchildren. She cannot behave as though he does not exist if she wants a good relationship with her kids. She might also lose what he has already offered. Her behaviour will be a lose, lose - lose her kids respect or peace of mind and lose any help from ex and his good will. You are protecting her by standing up to her OP.

She is also showing her kids that it is ok to throw a tantrum and threaten to cut people out of your life. How would she feel if her kids treated each other like that? Or if they treat her like that one day and she looses contact eith them or any grandchildren? This is her oportunity to show how you act with some dignity and magnaminity.

Say your piece, validate her feelings but condemn her behaviour, and then ignore her for a bit. Encourage others like your parents to do the same. Hopefully she will rage herself out.

I can't help but feel very sorry for your sister and it's hard to see how she hasn't been screwed over by your bil. They had a long relationship, 2 children and chose not to get married. It's very easy to say oh well she was stupid but why isn't he being held to the same standard? Yes legally she is entitled to nothing but your sister presumably supported him whilst he worked (and when she worked) and raised their children. Now he no longer requires her services because their youngest is 18, she gets turfed out with nothing whilst he waltzes off with his new partner and his properties. I don't think your bil is decent because the decent thing to do when they separated was to sit down, work out the assets accrued whilst they were together and find a suitable division that they could then both move on with.

If your sister posted the same situation here, she would be overwhelming told that a) she was stupid and b) to go NC with you. I don't think she has the right to tell you to cut him off but I do think she has the right to cut you off if you can't see why she is hurt and keep gaslighting her that she's been treated fairly.

Believe me there are many people who decide not to marry solely due to wealth - inherited or otherwise.

You are describing the ExP as an easy-going, overly-generous bloke but I bet he is well aware that if they had been married your DSis would be getting half of everything. With his current proposal he is getting off VERY lightly.

OP - your posts are coming across that you are Team ExP. Just read back on them. Yes, your DSis has and is being incredibly stupid but she does need more support than what you seem to be giving her. She's in shock, hopefully she'll calm down and get legal advice ASAP.

However, another way of looking at this is that 'morally' they were for all intents and purposes married for a very long time and there were two children from that union. Had they done a ten minute registry office appointment to legally marry she would almost certainly be entitled to half the assets, in recognition for her contribution to their union (facilitating his earning, raising children etc.)

But she chose not to. That 10 mins that they didn't do would have given them both the advantages and disadvantages of marriage.
She chose not to go into a legally binding contract. You can't have it both ways. Depending on your p.o.v not going into a marriage, means eitheriof you can walk away freely (excluding children responsibilities) which can be a good thing or a bad thing.
The sister had years to decide what she wanted. No point moaning because things arent in her favour any more.

When are women going to see other women as equal to a man???

All this, he made her not be married, he's shafter her cos she had the kids while he worked, poor her being left with nothing.

Bollocks

She was happy with the previous situation. Even when they split, she was happy enough to have him invited to the parents party etc.

She's not passive in her own life, she has just as much power as the husband

I'm confused as to why you didn't tell her he was in a new relationship if there wasn't anything odd about it? Why keep it a secret if it was all completely normal? You would have told a friend, but not your sister, so bizarre

Lets say I choose to cut him off, it’s not even entirely possible. I don’t speak to him on the phone daily or go out weekly with him myself but my DH does (maybe not on the phone daily but silly texts & that sort of thing) if they go out he picks DH up & comes inside, he pops in for a beer at least once a week, sometimes he is here when I get home, I cannot tell my DH that he cannot have him as a friend anymore or dictate who he brings into our home (unless something really serious had happened with them). I just don’t know how on earth it would work. My sis & DH get on great but that still wouldn’t be enough to cut him off entirely

She’s probably mostly upset about him meeting a nee woman and it being hidden from her by you, because loyalty should lay with her, no matter how amicable it was that’s going to come as a shock.

She’s hurting and will calm down, tbh she’s given her life to be a mother and homemaker and this has probably come out of nowhere since he’s with someone, if they was married she would have had more rights, which is a shame.

That being said she is where she is and should spend the time left to study and find a job so that she can be more independent.

I hope you can help her in that direction rather than worry about why you should stay friends with her ex, I imagine once he’s settled in with the new chic your relationships with him will change altogether, maybe he will distance himself if the girlfriend isn’t comfortable hanging with his ex’s family, so be careful who you side with here.

Spot on. 👏👏👏

Now he no longer requires her services because their youngest is 18, she gets turfed out with nothing whilst he waltzes off with his new partner and his properties. I don't think your bil is decent because the decent thing to do when they separated was to sit down, work out the assets accrued whilst they were together and find a suitable division that they could then both move on with.

Yeah I agree, but there seems to be a quiet glee in the sister’s demise, despite the fact that the OP also doesn’t work.

Her loyalties are clearly lying with the ex brother in law.

@PrFi

She wasn’t stupid not to marry him she was stupid to become dependent on him & not have any contingency of her own.

You are absolutely right. Your BIL has been/is being very reasonable but I'm sure his patience will wear thin before too long. Is there anyone your sister respects who she'd listen to, to start making the transition a bit less painful? It could get more difficult if he has to go the legal route. 🌹

It isn’t in any way a given that she would have walked away with half had they been married. We’re taking about generational wealth passed down via bloodline, and when that’s the case the wealth is, more often than not, secured in such a way to explicitly prevent that from happening. In reality she may not have walked away with anything more than what she already has.

Not that what she would have been entitled to had they been married is at all relevant, because the bottom line is they weren’t.