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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Baby is ruining us

482 replies

fedupnow2 · 23/07/2023 20:36

I'm really fed up, frustrated and just desperate for advice. I have an 8mo and she is just the most difficult child- extremely high needs(constantly wants to be carried) but the biggest issue is her sleeping habits. This is not an exaggeration- I spend 5-6 HOURS a day trapped in my room trying to make her sleep. Every single nap time is a nightmare- she is so tired but just cannot sleep. She wants to be rocked but will wriggle furiously. If you leave her in her crib/ lie next to her then she becomes hyper and get more worked up. Dh has a very stressful job and the moment he walks in i hand her over because I'm sick of her. He is also highly frustrated because he then spends the next few hours trying to get her to sleep and he has barely sat down . Our weekends are consumed by her sleep issues. She has been like this since she was born. We have an older child who is struggling because I don't have time for him because of the baby. I would leave her to cry it out but dh doesn't want to. We have done everything- walks, routine, bath before bed, white noise. She eats very well. Please don't tell me this will end, I can't bear another second. Taking her out at any part of the day hypes her up when she gets home. I have now been sitting with her for the past 2 hours and she is furiously just thrashing about crying. Not in pain, just overtired. I've carried her and she just wants to be down. I'm just at the end of it.

OP posts:
Bunnycat101 · 24/07/2023 01:24

My first child would just sleep for naps and has always been a deep sleeper. My second on the other hand has driven me mad with sleep deprivation.

As a baby, we came gp realise my second was very rigid on awake time windows (never knew what they were with my first). Get the window right and she’d sleep like magic, get it wrong and she’d be an unhappy overtired mess who could screech for hours. At that age she couldn’t go more than about 21:2 hours awake and needed to be put down when she still seemed awake and happy. Might be worth a look if you haven’t tried. As a baby she needed a very rigid routine to be happy and didn’t manage overstimulation at all.

At 4 she’s still much harder re sleep than my eldest and tiredness screws her up as she’s much more likely to wake up in the night when she’s got a bit overtired and gets into a cycle of sleep deficit/ her brain being a bit wired. I’m up with her now at 1am.

babbscrabbs · 24/07/2023 03:09

janeyredlion · 24/07/2023 00:28

sorry to detail OP but @OhwhyOY your baby didn't actually roll over at two days old did they?' That must be a typo! I'd be fascinated if they did, my first did sone things early so I'm always interested but I've never heard of anything like that

My bad sleeper did too. I remember popping him on a mat on the floor when he was a few days old and he rolled a full metre away! He also rolled off the sofa, luckily I caught him.

babbscrabbs · 24/07/2023 03:10

I think it wasn't actually intentional rolling like older babies do though. It was more like a reflex?

babbscrabbs · 24/07/2023 03:17

fyn · 23/07/2023 23:17

What do you think releases more cortisol -

a. gentle sleep training where the baby cries for maybe a minute or so before you settle them for a couple of days
b. them crying and thrashing about for hours while you hold their hand or rock them for months on end.

Do you think there will be more attachment issues with a mother who has a mental breakdown from exhaustion or a baby that cries for a minute?

It’s like people have lost the ability to think critically and just parrot out outdated studies they’ve read on social media.

What makes you think that this baby who cries for hours WITH a caregiver there will be easily sleep trained and only cry for a minute?

Aside from that, I agree with the sentiment that having a frazzled depressed caregiver can cause attachment issues.

TopMog · 24/07/2023 04:26

[This is a l-o-n-g post because I have included excerpts from a fabulous book, so please bear with me.]

While you were pregnant your baby would have been rocked with every movement you made. Rocking is very soothing, and the rhythmic motion enables the body's nervous system to relax.

President Kennedy had a rocking chair which he used every day to ease his pain. Do you have a rocking chair? Sitting in it with baby, and rocking, calms you both down. One with wide spaced arms so you can hold baby comfortably for feeding.

When my daughter was a baby, I had a carpenter make a sturdy pine rocking bed for her - it was beautifully crafted. He took as its inspiration, traditional Bavarian/Swiss/Swedish rocking cradles, but I wanted it to last for a few years so it was bigger. Basically, it was a junior-size box/bed on rockers. He cut heart shaped holes in the sides and ends for extra ventilation, although the sides weren't high. If she stirred at all in the night, the movement made it rock gently and it lulled her back to sleep. I had it next to my bed and could lean over and rock it to get her to sleep. I was breastfeeding, so she was also in my bed.

Similar in a way to this photo, but the sides were much lower. He put the supporting base strut/battens half way up the height so the mattress rose higher - he was anxious that she had lots of air to breathe. She finally outgrew it at about 5 years old. She is petite.

Some guidelines from La Leche League on sleep:

https://www.laleche.org.uk/supporting-families-sleep/

VERY IMPORTANT! Please buy yourself a copy of this book:

Touching the human significance of the skin by Ashley Montagu. It saved my sanity in the first two years.

Also, another worthwhile treasure is The continuum concept by Jean Liedloff - great insights into harmonious methods of child rearing and care.

Excerpt from Touching:
When the baby feels uncomfortable or insecure it may whimper, and if its mother or anyone else rocks the cradle this will have a soothing effect. Rocking reassures the baby, for in its mother's womb it was naturally rocked by the normal motions of her body. To be comfortable means to be comforted, and for the infant this comfort is largely derived from the signals it receives from its skin. The greatest of all comforts is to be cradled in the mother's arms or lap or supported on her back. There is, as Peiper has remarked, "no better sedative."

Ashe says, "It is necessary to rock a healthy young infant in his cradle or in the arms or baby carriage only once when he is on the verge of crying: He immediately quiets down and starts to cry again as soon as the movement stops momentarily. He will surely not cry if it is done right."

It is absurd to suggest that the cradle is harmful because the infant will develop the habit of having to be rocked before it will be able to fall asleep. If cradle rocking is habit-forming, so is breastfeeding or bottle feeding. Yet children are weaned from breast or bottle, unless it is done too suddenly, without any serious difficulty or after effects. Millions of babies who had been rocked to sleep in cradles grew up to be adults who were able to fall asleep without needing to be rocked. Children outgrow the cradle as well as they do their baby clothes.

Rocking chairs are still popular among older folks, especially in unsophisticated rural areas, where "modernity" has not made such complete inroads as it has in the more worldly-wise urban areas. It is strange that no one has ever suggested that the rocking chair is "unnecessary and vicious' in adults, or that adults will be unable to relax unless they can do so with the assistance of a rocking chair.

Rocking chairs, in fact, for adults, and especially the aging, are to be highly recommended for reasons similar to those which make the cradle so highly recommendable for babies.

Rocking, in both babies and adults, increases cardiac output and is helpful to the circulation; it promotes respiration and discourages lung congestion; it stimulates muscle tone; and not least important, it maintains the feeling of relatedness.

A baby, especially, that is rocked, knows that it is not alone. A general cellular and visceral stimulation results from the rocking.

Again, especially in babies, the rocking motion helps to develop the efficient functioning of the baby's gastrointestinal tract. The intestine is loosely attached by folds of peritoneum to the back wall of the abdominal cavity. The rocking assists the movements of the intestine like a pendulum and thus serves to improve its tone.

The intestine always contains liquid chyle and gas. The rocking movement causes the chyle to move backward and forward over the intestinal mucosa. The general distribution of chyle over the whole of the intestine undoubtedly aids digestion and probably absorption.

Writing in 1934, Zahovsky stated that "young infants who are rocked after nursing as a rule have less colic, less enterospasm [intestinal spasm] and become happier babies than those who are laid in the crib without rocking. In fact, I have several times availed myself of this physical therapy even in recent years to relieve the dyspeptic young baby. ... I firmly believe that the cradle assists maternal nursing."

Dr. Zahovsky concludes with the words, "Someday, I believe, it will be no disgrace to rear the young baby in a cradle and even sing him to sleep by a lullaby."

More than a generation has had to elapse before anyone could be found to echo Dr. Zahovsky's words. The cradle should be restored to the infant. It should never have been discarded in the first place. The reasons that were given for its banishment were completely unsound and wholly unjustified, based as they were on misconceptions concerning the nature and needs of the child and the ludicrous notion that cradle rocking is detrimental to the child.

The benefits of rocking are considerable. When the infant is too warm the rocking has a cooling effect, hastening evaporation from the skin. When the infant is too cold the rocking helps to warm him. The warming has a hypnotic effect on the infant, and it is soothing to his nervous system. Above all, the rocking motion produces a gentle stimulation of almost every area of his skin, with consequential beneficial physiological effects of every kind.

As a first step in the ultimately possible, and much to be desired restoration of the cradle to its rightful place,* rocking chairs have been introduced into some hospitals. For example, at Riverside Hospital, Toledo, Ohio, rocking chairs have been in use as a regular part of the infant-care program. In 1957 a mahogany rocking chair was introduced as a Christmas gift from Riverside nurse aides, who pooled money to buy what they voted as "most needed new equipment" at the hospital. In each of the three nurseries a rocking chair is available, including one for premature infants.

Mrs. Herbert Mercurio, obstetrical supervisor, states that the old rocking chairs are always used by nurses and aides at infant feeding time. "It's the best way to feed a baby and put him to sleep at the same time. It's relaxing for the nurse, too." The rocking chairs are used to pacify crying babies. Mrs. Mercurio feels strongly that rocking chairs are useful and practical and encourages their use at home. "A rocking chair," she remarked, "won't spoil a child. This is something they enjoy, but outgrow rapidly."

Quite possibly the rocking chair used in this manner has some advantages over the cradle. I think both might well be come standard equipment in the home with a small infant in this manner at once satisfying the need for rocking of both infant and adult.

Studies on the effects of rocking on human infants indicate their considerable benefits. Neal studied the effects of rocking on two-to-three-month prematures. These were rocked for the number of days they were premature, and it was found that the rocked prematures were significantly superior to the non rocked prematures in the development of tracking behavior to visual and auditory stimulation, head lifting, crawling, muscle tone, strength of grasping, and weight gain. In addition no edema ever developed in the rocked prematures, whereas it did in some of the non rocked ones.

Ms. Neal suggests that rocking stimulation provided by the mother during pregnancy constitutes an important sensory input for normal development, and that prematures are unduly handicapped, following deprivation stimulation, by their premature birth.

Woodcock observed the effects of rocking new-born female babies in a mechanical bassinet for one hour a day for six days. On the sixth day they were tested for heart-rate response to a buzzer as a measure of reactivity. It was found that the rocked babies had significantly fewer responses and took a shorter time to finish their acceleration response than the un-rocked newborns. The decreased heart-rate and acceleration responses in the rocked infants suggest an increased maturational development.

A fascinating account of the serendipitous discovery of the benefits of rocking for seriously disturbed mental patients is reported by Dr. Joseph C. Solomon. Dr. Solomon observed that patients taken from their rooms in hospital for transfer to an other town by train, though they had earlier needed to be restrained in straitjackets and muffs, became very quiet and calm as soon as the train was in motion.

Solomon reasoned that, since in the womb the child is subjected to considerable passive motion, part of the human contact these patients may have missed as children was the active rocking in the mother's arms which would, among other things, stimulate the vestibular apparatus.

Purposive active motions, Solomon suggests, develop with facility and pleasure when the passive motion imparted by the mother has been satisfactorily internalized as an integrated inner function. Conversely, when there is little chance for the internalization of the passive movements derived from the mother, the active rocking becomes a habitual device for self-containment.

It is a method of defending the formative ego against the feeling of being abandoned. This follows the principle of Newton's Second Law. If you actively push against something, it is as though something is pushing against you. In this way the infant accomplishes the goal of not feeling completely alone. It is as though somebody is always there. As such it is
another self-containment device similar to thumb sucking, the security-blanket, nail-biting, or masturbation."

_

Last thoughts

  1. Are you breastfeeding / bottle feeding? Have you started introducing other foods? Which? Could any of these be causing problems?
  2. Are you using any cleaning/laundry products with chemicals that she may be sensitive to?
  3. Are you using a tie-on baby carrier (not one with metal frames/bars), so she gets passive body-to-body contact? https://kellymom.com/parenting/parenting-faq/sling/
Baby is ruining us
Jenypenny · 24/07/2023 04:28

This needs to be looked into. You're also sleep deprived.

Make an appointment to see your GP and health visitor ASAP. Tell them about your baby not sleeping and how this is making you feel.

Careerdilemma · 24/07/2023 04:43

Stop trying to make her nap. The Possums approach is very liberating.

Jenypenny · 24/07/2023 04:45

Sorry, I just read that you've already seen a paediatrician.

My son was like this and he seemed to not want to sleep. Up all night.

He walked a 9 months.

As he got older he always had energy and he wouldn't listen and it did stress me out.

At age 7, I took him to the GP and was referred to child development.

The child development service diagnosed him with Adhd at age 7. He's 25 now. It still affects him but not in the 'physical' way when he was a child and had plenty of energy to spare.

Now it seems to affects his focus and attention. He loses his keys and finds it difficult to manage his time and procrastinates etc.

Still go back and see your GP or health visitor because you need help and support because this situation is making you stressed.

TopMog · 24/07/2023 05:19

Just thought of something else that may be of some use. Baby massage. But please don't use powder - it is bad for their lungs and skin. If anything, organic extra virgin cold pressed olive oil.

wibdib · 24/07/2023 05:30

I couldn’t get ds2 down to sleep I the early evening when he was born despite never having had any problems with ds1. Got very frustrating as it meant that either I was incredibly late to get ds1 bathed and into bed or dh needed to do it - and meant that it pushed supper much too late for dh and me.

in the end I thought sod this and didn’t put ds2 down to sleep at 6-7pm when ds1 went to bed, but let him sit up in ds1’s high chair - which was a comfy one that you adjust to lay back if he fell asleep (which occasionally happened during the day). Whilst I don’t ever remember him falling asleep in it in an evening, ds was happy to sit there quite quietly just being awake and watching/listening to dh and myself - we didn’t give him much to do or watch - we had our stuff on the tv if there was stuff we wanted to watch (back in the day when you had to watch tv or miss your favourite programmes!), there were a couple of little fiddle toys that he had if he wanted, but he was usually just happy to be awake and with us.

meant dh and I had our evening together, to catch up on the day, chat, watch tv etc etc and then when it was time (11ish)for bed I’d take ds2 up with me and give him a feed - buafter which he would fall asleep easily and I could go to sleep at a reasonable time…

worked so much better for us - not sure I could have coped if I’d had to spend hours trying and failing to put ds2 down in the early evening - lots of people were horrified but it worked for us and ds2 was happy and thrived. I couldn’t have done it with ds1 - he needed his sleep but his brother was completely different so we went with what worked for him.

I think this carried on until he was about 5-6, when he decided himself that he was tired and wanted to go to bed at the same time ds1 went to sleep rather than when we did! (I had always changed him ready for bed when he ds1 went to bed, to get that bit of the bedtime ritual in. He was also bf and would wake up several times a night to feed- don’t think he reliably slept through the night until he was at least 5 and would still occasionally wake up for no apparent reason. We did migrate from milk to water once bf stopped (ant 3) and he would drink at that as needed if/when he woke up.

probably worth mentioning as some others have also observed with their dc who were similar - ds2 is now mid teens, ridiculously bright, has dyslexia and dyspraxia and sleeps better than ds1! He still takes a bottle of water up to bed with him!’

itendswithus · 24/07/2023 05:39

Op. My first was like this. She was up and screaming a minimum of 4 times a night until she was 2 and a half years old. I was a shell of my normal self.

The health visitor was the one to sit me down and told me to do sleep training. I can remember being sat out side DD's door silently sobbing listening to her.

3 days later she was sleeping through the night and we never looked back.

If I had known that 3 nights would be the difference I'd have done it earlier in a heartbeat.

Porridgeislife · 24/07/2023 06:10

Before sleep training you really need to check 3 things

1 No muscular tension / undiagnosed tongue tie
2 No allergies
3 No iron deficiency

My daughter went to 11 months before her tongue tie was divided after seeing 1 IBCLC, a cranial osteopath and 2 different tongue tie specialists so it can very definitely be missed. She was full of tension from how she developed in utero and the fact you mentioned yours rolled at 2 days usually suggests tension as well (so did mine!) If you share your location someone can suggest someone to see.

Allergies - it can be worth cutting out milk and gluten to see if that makes a change. At least 3 days is needed. If you’re formula feeding you will need some professional help.

If none of this helps it can be worth getting her iron levels checked with the GP.

My daughter was a shocking sleeper, such hard work, but 1 & 2 helped tremendously and at 13 months we’ve finally done gentle sleep training which has gone well and she is finally sleeping. She had no other signs of allergy or tongue tie as she was successfully breastfed, she was just an extremely fussy, sleep dodging baby. I don’t exaggerate when I say I only ever slept for 45 minutes at a time between 4 and 10 months!

OhwhyOY · 24/07/2023 09:55

@janeyredlion yes two days old :-O We were very surprised! It wasn't in the way that babies roll over later on, it was more that she'd hold her legs together and flip them to one side to turn herself over onto her other side/tummy. She had to go to hospital and the doctors wouldn't believe me that she regularly rolled over, until they saw it in person!

Almondcakeismyfav · 24/07/2023 12:11

It’s a very long time ago now - DS is now just turning 15 . He wouldn’t nap - I tried very hard - it wasn't worth it - I had to give up as I ended up pregnant again quite quickly . Take the pressure off on organised napping . If it happens in the car/ buggy go with it .

DS15 did not sleep through consistently for a full week every night until he was 4.5 yrs. DS13 did from 10 months 🤷🏻‍♀️. I used what was called gradual retreat at that time 15 years ago - it worked well - no long term screaming and relatively gentle but needs patience.

DS15 walked at 9 months , talked constantly as soon as he could and has always been on a quest for information. He is a very bright kid . Looking back I think it’s all connected. He isn’t an anxious child either. DS 13 has been much more average and a lot more anxious.

Be kind to yourself , don’t blame yourself , you will get through it - it does get better .

LuckySantangelo35 · 24/07/2023 13:09

This thread is really refreshing in the sense that no one is against Op sleep training - usually you always get some posters who are really set against it and genuinely think a mother should sacrifice her mental health rather than sleep train (cos that’s all part of being a mother!)

Lozois99 · 24/07/2023 13:54

Car. Drive and drive and drive. Mine were both like this and it was hell

mumofboys8787 · 24/07/2023 15:44

Teapot13 · 23/07/2023 23:25

Controlled crying is way better than uncontrolled crying. Just sayin.’

Preach

JRM17 · 24/07/2023 15:46

I'm sorry but I am firmly in the put her down and let her scream camp. She will eventually exhaust herself and fall asleep. Did you coddle her alot as a new born (pick her up the second she cried etc).

EvilLynz26 · 24/07/2023 15:47

fedupnow2 · 23/07/2023 20:41

I would do sleep training but dh feels really bad about her crying. He does every single night and I feel so bad because he has a health condition and has been struggling. But i feel if I do one more second with her I will lose my mind.

I know a lady who does sleep training - Not cry it out. She might be able to help. Let me know if you want her name x

1stTimeBoyMumx · 24/07/2023 15:48

@fedupnow2 we did CIO with my son at this age as he would only sleep next to me and would wake regularly through the night. I planned on doing controlled crying but my presence made him hysterical. Night 1 took an hour and a half, night 2 45 mins night 3 30 mins and after that not a single tear shed. It saved my sanity and he has been an incredible sleeper since, coming in with me when poorly etc but back to his room once better etc. it was horrible and my other half wanted to stop but he also wasn’t the one getting up 15 times a night to re settle him. Just do it; make your partner go out for an hour the first night. If they’re not sleeping they’re not growing properly. They need sleep to function properly x this was also health visitor recommended to me I always thought it was a no no but after trying all the ‘gentle’ methods that didn’t work they suggested CIO.

loislovesstewie · 24/07/2023 15:48

I'm firmly in the controlled crying camp, NOT CIO, worked a treat with both of mine, about 4-5 mins of shouting, then perfect peace and perfect sleep. For all of us.

spotified · 24/07/2023 15:51

My now 17 yo was like this. Sleep training didn’t work for us. What did work was: finally throwing all the books, advice, sleep consultants in the bin and go with the flow. Out and about all day long, hours in the buggy or car every day. Co sleep at night. Eventually once she had some language and understanding, she learned to fall
asleep. But it was a rough ride OP, I won’t lie.

re your ds1, though and his upcoming birthday… pls get a baby sitter for an afternoon and take him out with your dh for a day dedicated to him only. Your baby won’t be the worst for wear, your 5yo will get the attention he needs.

MeridaBrave · 24/07/2023 15:58

Very hard but I don’t think what you are doing is fair on your older child. At 8 months I think either need to accept some crying it out / controlled crying or have to engage a professional.

I’d start with daytime sleeps in pram, by 8 months need 2 just morning and lunchtime. Walk around for the whole time out of the house, say 10-11 (after bottle change etc) and say 2-3:30 (after bottle, change etc). Ideally hopefully after a week or so should be able to bring pram home and leave in a quiet dark room so don’t need to walk entire time. After 3-4 weeks when nap times are established then controlled crying in cot.

At bedtime that’s less practical so might be a case of controlled crying hopefully only once a day.

Miaminmoo · 24/07/2023 15:59

Just a suggestion but have you asked for help from the HV or GP? My friend had a child like this and it was a medical issue - just wondering if you’ve checked it’s not a physiological or sensory issue? I hope you find a solution.

Sandseaandsky · 24/07/2023 16:17

BeauxHeaux · 23/07/2023 21:31

Lucy Woulfe Sleep Solution book. Life saver. Includes suggested timetable for wake windows. Has an Instagram also.

I second this. Lifesaver. Based in Cork. Will do a private consult but works just as well to but the book and work from that. Lucy Wolfe Sleep Solution. Both mine are Lucy sleepers. 7-7. They love their bed.
I feel for you OP. You're not alone. Your husband will be sorry he doubted anything when the house is quiet at 7.10pm every night. Best of luck.