Grammar and teachers

[Usersooty]

I went to a popular theme park last week. Masses of school trips.

I heard so many teachers/TA’s speaking using grammatically incorrect language. It really shocked me and as we waited in (endless) queues I listened to lots of “we haven’t got no snacks”, “we’ll go toilet after this” etc etc.

I have never heard a single member of staff at my childrens schools speak like this. I’d be really concerned if they did.

It made me quite sad for the children being taught/supported academically by them.

I didn’t stare, I didn’t comment. I wasn’t rude at all. Prepared to get flamed, but AIBU to be surprised by this?

@MyGuineaPigIs007 you try and recruit highly educated,very well spoken TA's with great and extensive subject knowledge for 14k a year(if lucky). And for that generous sum also expect them to teach, do interventions, be spat ,sworn and kicked at and so on. Go on.

You don't need to be highly educated to use correct grammar. It is taught at primary school!

I do agree TAs are underpaid and I think it's disgusting . Most of them so such a great job, my sister has been both a TA and a teacher. But it's not hard to learn basic grammar, and it should be a minimum requirement.

Oh ffs really! I say things like "go toilet" "were'z me mam", "I live an ouse, "am going t'uddersfield", "get ya coat on", "I'll eat owt". But I wouldn't write it down like that! 🙄
Eevrbody talked like that when I was growing up. Even my teachers

But you might write it down like that if that was ALL you were ever exposed to! If you hear standard English elsewhere, or read a reasonable amount, then that's fine - but if you are ONLY exposed to non-standard English, then obviously that is going to form the basis of your ability to communicate in any context!

@MyGuineaPigIs007 the thing is, a lot of teachers use their regional dialects, which aren't standard English. They also went to school, went to uni, went through teacher training, many of them passed with flying colours and they still use it. So yes, in a way you do expect higher standards from TAs than a bog standard education in primary school. Also, let's not forget that grammar was entirely dismissed for a period of time and it took a while to actually implement and actually show results when it came back "in", so once again , if they are a certain age , it would only be TA's that had a higher education that picked up the rules.

As an aside, when I first started as a TA , there was a lot of competition and at the very least we had to write a letter on the spot and be able to accurately and quickly do the Maths and Reading SATS papers. Schools back then could afford to be picky since the job wasn't too bad and pretty basic , despite the wage being low. Now we are massively struggling to recruit, which is to be expected since I've spent entire weeks this year teaching for at least half a day in different classes different subjects.

Ah, I see. I hadn't realised the recruiting issue was so dire. Apologies for any offence I may have caused.

@MyGuineaPigIs007 no offence taken . It really is that bad, we even struggle to get teachers in , which is why I have been covering so many lessons.

The expectations are high, but the desire for things to actually change and support are low. That's what bothers me. Even OP's only "solution " to the problem was some pie in the sky, "if I was in government I would..." but nothing tangible or realistic.

You pay peanuts, you get monkeys. I'm a very well trained and educated monkey, and would still fall massively short from some people's expectations of school staff.

It's such a shame and I can understand the strikes.

What is 'properly'? The dialect spoken in affluent areas of London and the Southeast?

Plenty of people from the North and Midlands speak perfectly correct grammar. Many of them do.

I do understand that. I'm a Black Country girl myself. There's a time and place, and I would never speak in my dialect to my students. I would also correct them if they spoke to me in bad grammar. Eg Yo am, should be You are.

It's incredibly difficult to teach children standard English when they've spent their entire lives hearing people speak non-standard English. I have been a teacher for 10 years (upper KS2) and am yet to meet a child who can code switch.

You don't need to be highly educated to use correct grammar. It is taught at primary school!

Not really. It wasn't much until the SATs reforms about 7 years ago, and even since those, certain specific grammar is crammed for the SATs and then it's dropped. I certainly wouldn't call it a well-rounded education in how to speak and write grammatically correct English. I'm 51 and have been an MFL teacher for 27 years. I learned all my English grammar via Latin and MFL, and for all my career we have had to explain English grammar in order to help teach MFL grammar.

i don't know if there was a golden age when British kids really were taught English grammar properly, but if so it was certainly before my parents' generation.

I’m still laughing this thread has gone on for so long. If you’re going to have a pop - your grammar ought to be top notch. Op using apostrophes all over the place in plurals is peak MN.

You mean the King’s English? You need a possessive apostrophe.

Catalan is a different language
It's not a regional variation.
It's not a dialect.
It's not incorrect Spanish.

"You don't need to be highly educated to use correct grammar. It is taught at primary school!

Not really. It wasn't much until the SATs reforms about 7 years ago"

As an 80s child I wasn't taught grammatical terms or rules in primary school. However, you learn grammar just by learning the language itself so it was always taught (in a certain way).

" I have been a teacher for 10 years (upper KS2) and am yet to meet a child who can code switch."

You must be joking. Everyone code switches. Nobody writes exactly how they speak and nobody is incapable of changing registers.

"I would also correct them if they spoke to me in bad grammar. Eg Yo am, should be You are."

But that's NOT bad grammar in their dialect, is it?
You may have a rule in your classroom that dialect is not allowed (a very regressive one I would argue), but it's not bad grammar in their dialect.

"Plenty of people from the North and Midlands speak perfectly correct grammar."

You mean to say that they speak standard English because those people who use dialect also use perfect grammar (just not always standard).

*MyGuineaPigIs007 · Yesterday 22:08

Whatever they are paid they should do their job properly including setting an example for children by using correct grammar, speaking The Kings English*

Like a Pathe news presenter? If someone told me to use the Kings English l’d deliberately exaggerate my northern accent thank you.

I think you need to consider your bias here. Many people use different forms of standard English in speech. I would expect standard English to be taught in the classroom but I couldn't get worked up about how adults speak on a school trip.

Lazyfucker, I am confident I am more knowledgeable than you about this issue.
I am a former primary school teacher with a degree in English, including some linguistics. I am also someone who acquired English aged 18 months, after my original first language, so I have been hyper-aware of how people speak and use language from an early age.

So, yes, consider yourself well and truly told! 🙄

There is more than one type of standard English even within the UK, OP. Scotland has Scottish Standard English, for example. NI's standard is different too. It's important to remember that.

I have no shame in being an academic snob when it comes to the recruiting of teachers. If you couldn't achieve above a C in your own schooling, how on earth are you going to be able to teach a child the skills to achieve above that grade?

Precisely. But at the moment we are so desperate to recruit that we are appointing almost anyone who will take the job. We can't afford to be picky.