Grammar and teachers

[Usersooty]

I went to a popular theme park last week. Masses of school trips.

I heard so many teachers/TA’s speaking using grammatically incorrect language. It really shocked me and as we waited in (endless) queues I listened to lots of “we haven’t got no snacks”, “we’ll go toilet after this” etc etc.

I have never heard a single member of staff at my childrens schools speak like this. I’d be really concerned if they did.

It made me quite sad for the children being taught/supported academically by them.

I didn’t stare, I didn’t comment. I wasn’t rude at all. Prepared to get flamed, but AIBU to be surprised by this?

What if they were amazing science teachers? Then it doesn’t matter to me. The examples you gave sounded very Yorkshire / northern and again it wouldn’t bother me.

i would rather have a super passionate teacher, that my kids loved than a a mediocre teacher who used correct grammar all the time

"My colleague (Oxbridge educated) says them instead of those. Eg..'where did I put them sheets?'"

Correct in her dialect (and a very common colloquialism).

@BusMumsHoliday you missed my point.

@Tinkietot We were in the heart of the SE. Very much estuary Essex accents, not northern.

There is a huge difference between accents (the way words are pronounced), dialects (a language specific to a geographical area), and bad grammar/sloppy English.
Dialects include non-standard grammar. It's one of the features of dialects.

Teachers have to follow the teacher standards, which talk about using Standard English appropriately. Other school staff aren't held to those standards as they aren't teachers.

Their language should be appropriate to the situation. If they're teaching double negatives in English, that's a problem. If they're overheard using regional varieties in spoken English on a school trip that's not a big deal.

Look, ideally yes, all school staff would speak perfectly, teach perfectly, (including in other languages) have no gaps and understand every concept themselves to a high standard, know everything that there is about safeguarding, SENs, mental health issues, be supportive,caring, empathetic, manage every behaviour perfectly etc. but we don't live in an ideal world. There are very few people in the world that would tick all the boxes , even fewer are actually teachers.

At the moment we work with what we have , and as far as I'm concerned the majority of teachers I work with are pretty darn amazing, despite their regionalisms.

It's not appropriate in the classroom, though. It doesn't help children learn the accurate standard English.

I mainly hear it from lawyers actually. I'd consider it part of their jargon.

You're again missing the difference between spoken and written language. They're not the same. Even OP doesn't speak the same as she writes and probably uses some non-standard English in her spoken language.

People complain that it’s hard for working class children to progress but then cling on to non-standard language as a badge of honour. The reverse snobbery is hideous and does children no favours

I don’t think I’ve read anything quite so disgusting in a very long time.
Do you think the way a person speaks is the only reason for lack of social mobility?
Do you really believe that a regional accent is justification for someone to not ‘ progress?’.

OP, your attitude is exactly what is wrong with this country- not accents or dialects.

Shame

But spoken 'where are them sheets' sounds poor as well when spoken in a professional environment. So, even if children do magically pick up that it is ok to say but not ok to write, how will they know when to use 'them' and when to use 'those' when modelled incorrectly in the classroom?

Or 'I was sat down'- plenty of people both write and say that.

Ok, well I’m bowing out now. I’m sure some of you will carry on. I probably am a bit of an academic snob. I have high expectations of teachers and it disappointed me to hear teachers (or other members of staff) speak with such sloppy English (to quote a pp).

I discounted a school because the teacher I met on a tour spoke badly.

I’m all for accents. I’m all for colloquialisms. But I’m also all for children having the best chances in life and schools setting the best example.

A teacher saying “you need to go t’toilet” in the north would really not bother me much at all. Many of the examples on their thread by other posters really would both me.

I love the poster who mentioned her granny who left school age 14. So sorry I can’t scroll back to find it while I’m typing here. But such a good example.

Agreed. Culture of low expectations.

again various reasons for this.

@Dotcheck
“People complain that it’s hard for working class children to progress but then cling on to non-standard language as a badge of honour. The reverse snobbery is hideous and does children no favours

I don’t think I’ve read anything quite so disgusting in a very long time.
Do you think the way a person speaks is the only reason for lack of social mobility?
Do you really believe that a regional accent is justification for someone to not ‘ progress?’.

OP, your attitude is exactly what is wrong with this country- not accents or dialects. “

You have misunderstood me. Accents should not matter. Lack of social mobility is about SO MANY things. But many, many people will discriminate on “sloppy” language/grammar. You can think that they shouldn’t all you like, but people will and do.

No - you’ve been using an apostrophe in other plurals too.

"how will they know when to use 'them' and when to use 'those' when modelled incorrectly in the classroom?"

The same way anyone learns it.

The so in that isn't proper English.

Could you expand for me, because I don't know what you mean?

I'm an MFL teacher. I'm trained to both model accurate language and teach a grammar rule explicitly. If you mean that you think children will know when to use them/those correctly because they've been taught a grammar rule (this might not be what you mean, I'm not sure), but without accurate modelling - I don't see it.
My husband uses them and those incorrectly (also dialect) and he absolutely does not understand the difference.

But lots of people never learn it!

I agree OP, educators should educate and there's no excuse for poor grammar. I'm confused by some posters stating that what seems like grammatically incorrect speech is due to regional accents. Some people claim the double negative is just a regional variation, which I didn't know. I once heard a welsh headmaster highlighting bad behaviour in some year groups, stating that 'it didn't ought to be that way.' I was quite shocked at the time, but does anyone know if this is actually correct if you are speaking in regional welsh dialect?

Backlash to your contemptible snobbery isn't "reverse snobbery" OP. 😒

Reverse snobbery would be if someone started getting their back up upon hearing RP at a theme park in the same way you are hearing a working class accent...

You seem to use accents and dialects interchangeably, which doesn't help.

Accent is how you pronounce words(how the sound) , dialect is how you use those words.

"I was quite shocked at the time, but does anyone know if this is actually correct if you are speaking in regional welsh dialect?"

Anything a native speaker says is correct in their own dialect.
The written language is another matter.

@AngryGreasedSantaCatcus Yes, sorry, that's right. I am curious about dialects since accents are irrelevant. I've met plenty of people with accents who use what I understand to be perfect grammar.

Then they weren't taught the standard written language adequately. Someone using it in speech doesn't mean that they wouldn't know how to use a different register in writing. As mentioned above, children code switch, and so do adults.