Grammar and teachers

[Usersooty]

I went to a popular theme park last week. Masses of school trips.

I heard so many teachers/TA’s speaking using grammatically incorrect language. It really shocked me and as we waited in (endless) queues I listened to lots of “we haven’t got no snacks”, “we’ll go toilet after this” etc etc.

I have never heard a single member of staff at my childrens schools speak like this. I’d be really concerned if they did.

It made me quite sad for the children being taught/supported academically by them.

I didn’t stare, I didn’t comment. I wasn’t rude at all. Prepared to get flamed, but AIBU to be surprised by this?

You mean standard grammar.
People who speak in dialect also use 'perfect grammar' because it's perfect for their dialect.

I would suggest that teachers should teach this then.
As I've said above, some teachers do not know the grammar rule, so cannot teach it.

Why do people state as a fact things that they know very little about?

@Gwenhwyfar OK, so 'didn't ought to' is Welsh dialect then? It's a strange concept to me, as I had a slight East London accent as a child. When I went to a prep I was told not to say 'yeah': it had to be 'yes'. Haha, now I could tell them my use of the spoken 'yeah' was perfectly correct!

I totally agree! And the use of 'would of' etc......ggggrrrr

But surely children learn language from speech just as much as formal lessons? What is the point of a teacher teaching the correct grammar in a lesson but then undoing that work by speaking incorrectly at other times?

I agree with you actually. Children learn from reading and listening. My husband and I are always careful to express ourselves correctly when we speak to / in front of our kids. It seems to be working - my 4 year old speaks so nicely.

*I grew up listening to and speaking three different dialects of English in different contexts, two of them 'non-standard'.

Later, I somehow managed to write an entire PhD thesis in standard English without a problem.

As an adult I can happily switch back and forth depending on the context I am in and to whom I am speaking. I am by no means unusual in my ability to do this.

You clearly don't know a great deal about language acquisition if you consider the use of non-standard forms of English being spoken around children to be a problem.*

Yes, YOU can. Many can't. You have a PhD, as do I, but this of course isn't representative of the majority of society. I'm an English teacher and many children I teach write with the same grammatical inaccuracies they have in their speech - which are likely reflective of what they hear. I'm not saying I speak like I do in my academic writing - that would he creepy - but I certainly speak to my students with a reasonable level of standard English.

For many children, school is the only place they come across standard English. If they don't hear standard English spoken at home, and don't read much, they depend on hearing it from their teachers. A person won't be able to 'switch' if they have nothing to switch to!

However, I did vote YABU. This is because teaching is in a major crisis right now. Pay is poor, workload is horrific, and there is a massive recruitment and retention problem. Teachers have been striking, yet many parents have criticised them for this. Well, if you want teachers with a decent level of standard English, I'm afraid the career needs to be more attractive.

Haha absolutely!

I have a theory on that.

YANBU!

Ironically it’s my English friends who use incorrect grammar most frequently “we wasn’t there” for example…. (I’m not English)

yes it’s petty but it really winds me up!

Recruitment issues are totally relevant.

If the pay is poor and the job is unattractive you can only select from a small pool of candidates willing to do the the job. Of course that means getting a lower standard of teacher on average.

I'm not saying all teachers are bad - I hate that as a lazy assumption. I've faced it enough times - when I've been at dinners and have been talking to someone and then when they ask what I do and I tell them I'm a teacher they instantly re-evaluate and dumb down the conversation. It's very irritating. BUT the average academic standard has dropped and is still dropping in my experience.

Pay peanuts then you get.....

I've heard quite a few people say this and it always surprises me too!

It's quite regional though I thought, people with Essex type accents in my experience.

Where were you?

I wouldn't be keen on my children's educators saying this, no. But then Tesco pay more than most TA wages so.....

I’m a TA in a prestigious grammar school, and I work with one of the most inspirational English teachers you could ever hope to meet. I have a regional accent-he trusts me completely to support his pupils.

This thread is insulting and hilarious.

@LucilleBluth Yes, but several people have observed that people with regional accents often use standard English grammar. Do you speak in a regional dialect using non standard English grammar?

Well, if you've been a parent through five schools you must be an expert on teaching.

I've been a patient in five hospitals and I'm a consultant paediatrician.

It's possible to use accent, dialect and standard English, and the differences between them as teaching points.

For example, I explain to my class how the ways things I say in my accent are different from how others may say them and are different from how we spell and write them in formal writing.

Take the word 'basket' for example. The children know it is spelt with an 'e' while in our accent we say it as as 'I'.

It forms discussions and lessons about the wonders and intricacies of English and is actually useful learning for all children as they meet people who speak in completely different ways.

Of course you’re not being unreasonable. Teachers should speak properly. Children learn constantly from those around them, and correct grammar has nothing to do with local dialect and everything to do with a proper education.

But you’ll have plenty on here flaming you for being snobbish. Just be glad your children don’t attend those schools!

I do actually get the point that children can learn to speak and write in different ways. My teen's conversations are almost a different language to me, with lots of 'bruv' and 'innit.' I haven't seen him try to write an essay that way, or talk to adults like that. It's pretty interesting really.

How do you know the job titles?

I’m a TA in a prestigious grammar school, and I work with one of the most inspirational English teachers you could ever hope to meet. I have a regional accent-he trusts me completely to support his pupils.

But you're talking about accent. That is different.

Oh ffs really! I say things like "go toilet" "were'z me mam", "I live an ouse, "am going t'uddersfield", "get ya coat on", "I'll eat owt". But I wouldn't write it down like that! 🙄
Eevrbody talked like that when I was growing up. Even my teachers

It's possible to use accent, dialect and standard English, and the differences between them as teaching points

Well yes of course. That is very valuable and I would be surprised if any school DIDN'T cover elements of this - we certainly do. But this isn't the same as being regularly exposed to standard English!

I wish I thought she was.

Before I left teaching, I was incredibly frustrated by the SPAG level of some of the teaching staff at my school (including the head). It was really embarrassing to see class information put on the website littered with spelling and grammar errors. Each class teacher had to put a weekly news item on their page, and some made me wince. I ended up asking to be given access to edit the site at the end of each Friday (hopefully before parents had chance to see the errors!)

Our TAs were amazing at what we needed from them, but yes, their grammar in speech could be VERY poor. That didn't worry me in our sector (many children being non-verbal anyway) but I can quite imagine that in the mainstream schools in our area (once voted the shittest town in the UK) there would be the same issue.

Realistically, the recruitment issues are reducing the pool of talent, both in teaching and classroom support. I'd be among the first to say that SPAG isn't everything (particularly in TAs - one of my best ever was almost functionally illiterate) but pretending it isn't an issue in some areas and some school phases (am I right in thinking that you're in secondary?) is unhelpful.

All schools will cover it. It's part of the National curriculum. I also think there is a massive difference between the occasional member of staff speaking in a non standard way and worrying that children aren't regularly exposed to standard English.

"We/you was" is part of some local dialects for example. Obviously not standard English, but still a dialect.

Whatever they are paid they should do their job properly including setting an example for children by using correct grammar, speaking The Kings English.