Grammar and teachers

[Usersooty]

I went to a popular theme park last week. Masses of school trips.

I heard so many teachers/TA’s speaking using grammatically incorrect language. It really shocked me and as we waited in (endless) queues I listened to lots of “we haven’t got no snacks”, “we’ll go toilet after this” etc etc.

I have never heard a single member of staff at my childrens schools speak like this. I’d be really concerned if they did.

It made me quite sad for the children being taught/supported academically by them.

I didn’t stare, I didn’t comment. I wasn’t rude at all. Prepared to get flamed, but AIBU to be surprised by this?

This will have been TAs. Teachers, regardless of accent, do not say 'haven't got no snacks'.

What an odd thing to say. We looked round a few primary schools recently because DD1 is starting in September and heard some really bad grammar from the teachers (and they definitely were teachers), including "we haven't got no...". It wasn't impressive.

I largely agree with you, OP. There is a fine line sometimes between dialect and incorrect language, and it's a bit of a sensitive topic. However, most native speakers of a language are adept at code switching from informal to formal, from slang to standard speech, from dialect to more standard. Kids do this fairly automatically from an early age.

I'm a teacher and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect teachers to err on the side of correctness when talking to their students (though not to the extent of getting rid of their accent!). The concerning thing is when they actually don't know what is correct. This happens quite a lot with teachers and TAs. You see it in writing, not just in casual speech. My dc's primary school teachers used to incorrectly correct their work!

I’ve been having this issue with DS’s school as he’s started to drop Ts from litter, better etc and it’s because that’s how his TA speaks. The school had responded to state they have no jurisdiction as to how a TA speaks and it is separate to the education being delivered. I personally think it’s batshit they have a TA teaching reception children to speak like genuine Clampits. Thankfully he will have a different teacher and TA next year and both of them appear to be able to speak properly.

Yabu to call the thread "teachers...". This will have been TAs. Teachers, regardless of accent, do not say 'haven't got no snacks'. Many TAs are very highly educated, but many are not. Teachers are all graduates with either education degrees or post grad education qualifications. Teachers use standard grammar whatever their regional background.

Sorry but that's just not universally true, (especially in primary school teachers and in non-wordy/non-essay subjects, in my experience). I've been a (languages) teacher for a long time and have seen/heard many, many grammar mistakes from teachers.

You are woefully out of touch. This is exactly how many young people (clearly not those in your world) speak. I work in a school where this is the way of communicating that these young people have been taught at home. Having a TA who can communicate effectively is a bonus - the students respond well rather than to someone with what they perceive as a posh accent who can’t begin to imagine their lives or world.
It doesn’t make it ideal but in lessons they are taught grammar, sentence structure and good communication. Outside of lessons, they speak in the way they are most comfortable with. Win win!

@Houseplantmad I’d respectfully suggest that anyone who thinks people don’t make judgements (rightly or wrongly) when children/teens say “go toilet” is living in a bubble.

I agree OP - school staff should know how to speak correctly.

Standards for teachers to gain QTS are low in England. There are various reasons why this is. I am a teacher in the UK. I never say anything when I hear poor grammar. We even see poor grammar on posters etc. (Less so now due to downloads from Twinkl.)

There is a chance you saw staff on the school trip who were not teachers but who are support staff, cover supervisor, TA etc. However, being a qualified teacher doesn’t equate to good grammar or vice versa.
A lot of teachers/school
staff with poor grammar are often better at pastoral matters etc. Although in an ideal world the two are not mutually exclusive.

Nothing can ever be said to staff with poor anyhow as culturally you cannot correct anyone (as will just cause issues or told you are undermining, upsetting others, being toxic etc.) Not worth pulling someone up on. So cycle continues and worsens. It is more likely someone would complain to HR about you for making them uncomfortable.

My teacher friends and I often laugh about this (behind closed doors obviously!)

And if they don't or can't (because you don't know what you don't know) ?Who do you replace them with?

Having a TA who can communicate effectively is a bonus - the students respond well rather than to someone with what they perceive as a posh accent who can’t begin to imagine their lives or world.

One of the things they should be taught is not to dismiss someone on the basis of their accent. Understanding and experience of other people's lives and backgrounds aren't dependent on speaking a certain way.

You can have a strong regional accent and use grammar correctly.

You can speak RP and use grammar incorrectly.

How many teachers did you actually say ‘go toilet’ did you just stand near the loos all day listening out for poor grammar?

For what it’s worth, in my part of the North we often say ‘go t’toilet’ we’re rather more sophisticated and acknowledge that there could be a word there.

Are you sure it wasn't a quieter, almost silent t' in a sentence like 'go t'toilet' you get in some regional accents/dialects? So in that case they are saying 'go to the toilet' but in a regional format.

Exactly as @drawingmaps says - it very much depends on who you're teaching and who is hiring! In a state school, I think lots of people would favour the applicant whose regional dialect suggests that they'd be able to connect with the local community.

I actually work in a role where I nominate students for outreach roles. I select students who speak in a variety of dialects precisely because I want to appeal to a number of audiences.

Accent is nothing to do with grammar.

You can have a strong Regional accent and use grammar correctly and you can speak ‘Queen’s English’ and have Poor grammar.

Accents should be celebrated. I love all of them (including my own!) Poor Grammar should be corrected imo. Alas it increasingly it isn’t for various reasons.

And if they don't or can't (because you don't know what you don't know) ?Who do you replace them with?

True.
It's also a bit of a cyclical problem. Grammar isn't taught wellin UK schools. They get a bit more than they used to in primary, but from what I can gather, they cram it for the SATS SPaG paper, only yo drop it like a hot potato, never to be mentioned again (except in MFL). So the TAs and teachers won't have been taught correct English grammar either.

Flora, go to t'toilet at t'mill!

Are you sure it wasn't a quieter, almost silent t' in a sentence like 'go t'toilet' you get in some regional accents/dialects? So in that case they are saying 'go to the toilet' but in a regional format.

I doubt it. Lots of people say 'go toilet', 'go shops' etc.

I'm a secondary English teacher and I find the debates around this really interesting. There's some thought provoking research from Dr Ian Cushing on dialect and discrimination in schools doing the rounds at the moment that is well worth a read. He has recently criticised Ofsted for enforcing discrimination against children who speak regional dialects that use non standard grammatical forms, and I think he makes excellent points.

It is becoming more recognised in educational circles that insisting teachers use 'standard' English in classrooms is a form of discrimination against those who speak with regional dialects, and perpetuates a damaging notion that there is a form of 'correct', 'standard' English that is the ideal 'norm' - which is largely spoken in the wealthy, London-centric South-East - and any other - i.e. regional/working class - is inferior. I suppose it's a sort of colonisation of the English language, attempting to eradicate regionality in the interests of imposing a 'gold standard' that certain people in positions of privilege have decided is 'correct' English. It's a highly problematic notion and one that we should be interrogating more thoughtfully in our efforts to create true inclusivity in classrooms.

Grammatical variations do exist within dialects, and as long as the grammatically correct form within that dialect is used, I don't see an issue with it. What I do see an issue with is the use of universally incorrect grammar, the most common example of which is using 'myself' in a non-reflexive setting. 'Myself and Mrs X have organised a trip..', 'please contact myself...' - I see it all the time from teaching colleagues, and it makes me internally cringe every time. I think people use it because they think it sounds posh or intelligent, when it actually makes them sound entirely the opposite.

@Flora56 “go toilet” was one example.

Got to agree with you, OP. When I heard a young person at an education fair ask my teen son, 'you wan' go college?' I steered him away and toward people who spoke properly. This young person was a representative of their college, but I didn't feel the school had done them any favours. I work in a secondary school and always correct 'go toilet.'

Do you realise how bad the recruitment crisis is?

Not RTFT, but totally agree with you OP.

I constantly correct the children I teach when they don't speak correctly. The most common was is "Can I have wa-er?" I say no you can't have wa-er but you can have waTer!

The other frequent one I hear is "Can I go toilet?" To which I reply no, but you can go TO THE toilet!

I teach in a primary school. We are in Yorkshire so dialect really does okay a part in everyday life for our children.

And it's quite amazing how, from a very young age, these children are able to switch between different dialects and between standard and non standard spoken English when doing so. This is even more the case with children who have parents from two different regions. The children switch how they speak depending on which parent they are speaking too.

In school every teacher I know teaches standard English. However in an informal day trip, such as a theme park visit or trip to the park, where the focus is very much on fun and the social side of things, when chatting these things can, and do, slip on occasion. I don't think this is a crime. Maybe not ideal but certainly not a major issue - bearing in mind that if at a theme park the children involved are likely to be teenagers or upper primary, so should already be well aware of standard forms of spoken English anyway.