to think female newsreaders and presenters shouldn't wear make up

[orangeleavesinautumn]

|I am absolutely sick of seeing men on TV with normal, natural looking faces, and the women sitting next to them with their faces smeared with gunk. Why can't women show normal, natural looking faces on TV too? What a horrendous disgusting message we are passing on to young girls. "You need to waste time and money smearing gunk on your face to be allowed to be seen in public"

Do you believe that women should be told what they can and cannot do? I can't see how the Op's point can be proven without knowing whether female newsreaders make a choice to present themselves in this way as it's always been this way, or because they've been told or in some way pressured to do so. If we start telling women they can't wear makeup to be taken seriously by other women we are truly regressing. All I care about is that they do their job well, and they do. I'm not any less clued up on current affairs because they have red lipstick on than I would be if they didn't, a non issue to me.

I believe my post above has amply answered these points.

Not really, do you believe that women shouldn't have the choice to wear makeup on television if they want to?

It’s up to the women if they want to wear makeup. Frankly, OP, it’s none of your business.

I beleive lots of people on tv and film wear make up male and female

But regardless it does not need women to tell women what they should or not do, that is just as controlling as blaming men

Are women allowed their own thoughts or opinions or do women need to police it?

To some extent, I agree, OP.

I think it's a shame that almost no women in the public eye aren't made-up. Mary Beard has been trolled endlessly for presenting a normal aged face without make-up to the public, and she is a brave woman on that front as well as amazingly clever.

Alicia Keys has gone make-up free for many years and you do do a double-take at her at fancy events because she looks so different to everyone else with their fake lashes/sculpted faces which are far beyond everyday make-up. She, of course, is beautiful and relatively young but she still looks anomalous.

I wear make-up myself a lot, and enjoy wearing it but I don't like that normal women's faces are deemed unacceptable on TV which to all intents and purposes they are.

Unless you are looking out your window at a horde of overly made up female newreaders & presenters picketing to force you to wear stage make up, I think you should let them make their own choices while you are free to make yours.

Did my post say that?

You're a very prolific new poster, OP! Wish I had your spare time.

It is not a free choice. There is no such thing as a free choice within a society that treats men and women as fundamentally different with fundamentally different roles that are chosen for them as soon as it is known what sex they are - even before birth nowadays. How many on here would whinge that they didn’t know what clothes to buy a baby if the mother chose not to reveal the baby’s sex? But some would rather get defensive about the way society imposes choices on us than face the reality. Or pretend to, to stop others thinking too much.

This might be worth a look, it’s only 3.5 mins long. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nWu44AqF0iI

yabu

I like the statement at the end of that video - give each child the opportunity to be whoever they are, which is exactly what so many women say about their appearances, dress and make up. But we are not anything except what choices society imposes on us / gives to us. Would there have been a software engineer among hunter gatherers, or a nuclear furnace engineer among a society of dolphins (meaning, in the sea, with no fire)?

Nowt like a woman on a site designed to support women having a dig at other women is there?

I presume your TV came with a remote control and or and off switch? Maybe use it.

The problem with judging women who choose to wear makeup and removing their choice is that it perpetuates the idea that women have to conform to a certain image in order to be taken seriously by other women. Where do we draw the line? Say the choice to wear makeup is removed and women stop wearing makeup on TV what then happens to the rest of their presentation? Do we move onto clothes next? It's akin to the judgement survivors of Sexual Assault feel when they worry about what they were wearing at the time and how it'll be perceived. I work with them on a regular basis and take the view that no matter how someone wishes to present themselves it's nobody else's business and judgement says more about the person doing the judging / implying that the woman is a victim of the patriarchy ( and she may well be ) than the indo ideal themselves. The actual response we should all be taking to these issues is to leave women alone to live and let live.

On another note, wrong as it may be many female adolescents start wearing makeup and it is a part of their transition into adulthood. News presenting is a serious job, wearing makeup is perceived by some ( although not all according to this thread) as a means of presenting a mature, adult persona. It may be wrong is some people's eyes but there's so much more to this and people's decisions about how they present themselves than just one view.

Knew pinkification was a bad thing the moment Toys R Us started to resemble an explosion in a sugared-almond factory.

Before this, in round about the 1980s, it was mostly bright primary colours for both sexes.

Now look at how we've come full circle...

Incidentally, a hundred years before us, most women didn't wear cosmetics at all, and before that men were far more decorative in the way they dressed (cf. the Wildean 'dandy'). Films like Titanic are badly out of whack for the period. Those women would not have been wearing any cosmetics, no matter how lightly applied, as this was considered the preserve of sex workers. A hangover from those attitudes was how until recently royal women were not permitted to wear dark nail polish.

Times and social discourses change, but discourses are powerful: advertising and the media in particular. They hold up to us an exemplar of how women should look and behave, and it makes people want to conform (hence power operates on the basis of desire rather than constant oppression, or at the very least, dresses that oppression up as desire in some situations). So no, not all women are being 'made' to wear make up, some might even actively choose to, but the discourses governing those choices are a bit more subtle than simply 'telling women what to do'.

No wonder fashion, which might seem frivolous to some, is such a serious business.

This is sooo interesting to me. I didn't know pinkification was a newish concept. Am learning a lot here. I really enjoy threads like this where completely opposing views are expressed that you probably wouldn't say at maybe your neighbours dinner party. Do you know where I can find out more about fashion encouraging people to conform over the ages? If it'll derail the thread pls feel free to pm me :)

You’re sitting there seething at this? It’s never crossed my mind. It’s not as if they’re made to wear ball gowns and tiaras. I’ve put make up on today just to go shopping because I’m sick of my face looking tired and pasty without it (although I would also like to be wearing a tiara).

There's an article here on Pinkification you might find interesting:

The power of pink | Feminism | The Guardian

As to your other questions, I'm loathe to say it - because I personally think his 'queer' theories have lately done irreparable harm to feminism, women and society in general - but what Michel Foucault says about subtle discourses governing our choices is persuasive, given we've seen such ample and widespread social evidence of it.

I've done a bit of research into 19-early 20C fashion - specifically Victorian corsetry and Wildean dandies - which show how fashion itself is a powerful tool to shape and change human subjectivities. I'm less well-versed in more contemporary stuff, so what I wrote above is purely the result of my own observations. I'd bet there has been work done into it, though.

It's amazing when we realize how powerful a force social convention can be.

I rarely wear make uo.but its up.to.the idvidusl.if they want to wear it ,some women prefer it who.are you to tellthem.they can't wear it?🙄YABU

No? Damned shame!

Perfectly put.

My face isn’t fit to be seen in public without make up. I can only assume you like seeing terrified children.

Spoiler alert: the men are wearing make up too
And not every female present has "OTT" make up, some have natural, some have subtle

And it's also literally none of your business. Stop judging women

I do think though that the other side of the coin to personal choice is that the normalisation of certain choices create expectations.

TV is a horrid example but nobody can deny that, even in 2023, women are still overwhelmingly valued and judged on their looks in comparison to men. A woman deciding not to wear makeup for a date or formal event is still seen as someone who’s ‘making a statement’. The default ‘professional’ look for women still involves makeup. Almost non of the men at work wear makeup but almost all the women do. Are women’s bare faces not good enough the way men’s are? It’s a personal choice but we do not live in a vacuum and personal choices do come from nowhere.

I suspect the differences in viewpoints wrt this is the difference between individualism and collectivism.