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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What is going on with British kids?

1000 replies

FrenchAreDoingSomethingRight · 13/07/2023 19:41

On holiday in France. An upmarket holiday camp and we are the only British family here. It was recommended by a French friend and I didn't realise it only has French families on holiday

Dinner is set 3 course dinner. My kids are 5 and 3. My older boy has ADHD we think (referred by school), our younger one doesn't as far as we know. Both kids are trying their hardest at dinner. There is v loud music playing and the pool party bit is still open. They run off after every course for a dance. Older one tries to stand up sometimes. We have colouring in books etc. Really they're fine. At restaurants and pubs they are totally average in terms of being able to sit at the table. No screens.

Not a single French kid has done anything wrong. No screens or even colouring. They might not all be talking to their parents but every single one is sitting through the whole 90 min dinner and waiting to dance at the end. So patient.

Do no French kids have ADHD or ND? Or even just kid like and cheeky? I have always tried my best with dinner times but these kids aren't even considering running off.

What is going on???

OP posts:
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WeeWillyWinkie9 · 15/07/2023 07:58

ANonnyMice · 14/07/2023 23:40

The cause is ADHD is primarily genetic and probably due to neurological dysfunction of the processes around the use of dopamine and noradrenaline.

It is not really anything to do with diet, exercise, gaming or allergens.

There is no evidence that diet has any causal input into ADHD - some people may find avoiding/taking certain foods may help them but despite vast amounts of research, results are mainly inconclusive.

They don't hand out meds like smarties here either - but I know first hand how dramatic the results can be.

The difference is here anyone with trauma is labelled ADHD and then doesn't get the help. It fits the narrative. In France they explore that first along with diet and low and behold once that is explored most cases are not as they seem and they don't need that medication because it was never anything neurological. We just chuck that label at any kid without exploring other issues first. France does it correctly. Here we just label anyone and anything who fits.

OMG12 · 15/07/2023 07:59

TommyNever · 15/07/2023 07:30

...this post was in response to NotAllPets.

Do you question why there’s apparently more homosexuality in Britain than say Iran? Genuinely curious, because it’s the same principle.

OMG12 · 15/07/2023 08:01

WeeWillyWinkie9 · 15/07/2023 07:58

The difference is here anyone with trauma is labelled ADHD and then doesn't get the help. It fits the narrative. In France they explore that first along with diet and low and behold once that is explored most cases are not as they seem and they don't need that medication because it was never anything neurological. We just chuck that label at any kid without exploring other issues first. France does it correctly. Here we just label anyone and anything who fits.

Ah, is that why France has much higher incidence of mental health problems and a higher suicide rate?

WeeWillyWinkie9 · 15/07/2023 08:01

ATeamsvan · 15/07/2023 04:25

So in other words, they don't understand ADHD at all?

No in otherwords they don't just label all at first glance like we do. They explore that what is presented could be down to other things first and try that before slapping on a label from some wooly criteria that most kids meet! They just show that it isn't as widespread as we think and prove that we label those who don't need it because we don't look at trauma first or diet we just go straight for the jugular.

Mummerator · 15/07/2023 08:01

I also remarked that Mumsnet families seem to report a very high incidence of autism and ADHD, and said I had no explanation. It may well be that this is just the nature of Mumsnet and doesn't reflect the average UK incidence.

Parents come to MN for help. When support for ND conditions is so poor at schools and within the NHS then it’s no wonder people seek out advice from other sources. This is in no way reflective of the average UK incidence which remains very low.

Bromptotoo · 15/07/2023 08:02

Is it just a cultural thing?

French kids are brought up eating out in this way. Sitting at the table is what they did in a high chair and it just carries on.

TommyNever · 15/07/2023 08:03

OMG12 · 15/07/2023 07:59

Do you question why there’s apparently more homosexuality in Britain than say Iran? Genuinely curious, because it’s the same principle.

Homosexuality is not a disability, doesn't require any medication and doesn't cause problematic childhood behaviour, so there's really not much there to compare.

But I accept that my impression that there is a high incidence of autism and ADHD in Britain was mistaken, having looked up the statistics.

Rachykins · 15/07/2023 08:03

I truly believe it does come down to parental expectations; there will be individual cases where some children with greater additional needs will struggle more but even with additional needs; boundaries and expectation isn’t something that should be non existent.

I have 2 children. 1 of them is autistic. Both of my children would still be able to go to a restaurant and be polite and manage to sit. I’ve never relied on screen time in public and at home I’ve always had family meals at the table where we all sit and talk to each other. I have had more issues with my autistic son being able to use cutlery appropriately but we persevered and continued to support and he manages.

I have 2 step children also; and the contrast in behaviour is astounding. They lack any table manners, are rude in public to people, are loud, can’t keep still and muck about at the table and admittedly; I try to avoid eating out with them because I find it really embarrassing and frustrating. My children also find it embarassing. It is a complete lack of discipline from both parents mixed in with the fact that they never would sit down as a family to have meals which OH has admitted. So I do genuinely think parents in this country are very lax with parenting and discipline!

OMG12 · 15/07/2023 08:04

OMG12 · 15/07/2023 08:01

Ah, is that why France has much higher incidence of mental health problems and a higher suicide rate?

Oh and as someone with PTSD and ADHD, I can see very clearly that the French approach would probably have led to my own suicide long ago, The French do very little “correctly” when it comes to mental health or diversity. They can’t even cope with vegetarians most of the time😂.

Mummerator · 15/07/2023 08:04

No in otherwords they don't just label all at first glance like we do.

do you have any direct experience of what the process is for getting a child diagnosed with adhd in the Uk? This is a very ignorant statement

NotAllPets · 15/07/2023 08:06

TommyNever · 15/07/2023 07:56

Here's a suggestion - go back and read my posts, and find that you're talking rubbish.

I've made no "horrific assumptions" at all, I'm simply trying to account for the kind of differences in behaviour described in the OP.

I also remarked that Mumsnet families seem to report a very high incidence of autism and ADHD, and said I had no explanation. It may well be that this is just the nature of Mumsnet and doesn't reflect the average UK incidence.

Looking up the stats, I see that my impression that there's a very high incidence of autism and ADHD in the UK is apparently mistaken.

Your suggestion that kids are always badly behaved "unless they're beaten" is pretty unhelpful.

Finally, as a gay person, I should correct your implication that homosexuality is a "mental health condition". Homosexuality is not in any way a disability.

I wasn't calling (my own sexuality) a disability, I was referring to societal attitudes that stem from ignorance.

You don’t need to bring autism or ADHD into the OP at all. People have given you reasons for your belief about high stats U.K. the U.K. yet you have ignored these and continued with your rhetoric under a faux ignorance.

I also did not say that kids are well behaved unless they’re beaten at all, no where near. I said kids behave the same way as British children (is with a range of behaviours and emotions as ours do, some ‘good’, some ‘bad’ and everything inbetween) and others are beaten. You have assumed that I meant the behaviour was bad and that’s on you.

AuxArmesCitoyens · 15/07/2023 08:10

completely standard and expected there to physically punish your children. Also to yell and scream at them in anger.

Absolute bollocks. Smacking is illegal, contrary to the UK.

Itsokay2020 · 15/07/2023 08:13

LacieLane · 13/07/2023 19:58

Expectation from being tiny. Engaged parents with their child. Boundaries. Manners.

This, start as you mean to go on and be absolutely consistent. It’s become more and more easy to spot those kids with no boundaries, no expectations and who rarely hear the word ‘no’.

OMG12 · 15/07/2023 08:15

TommyNever · 15/07/2023 08:03

Homosexuality is not a disability, doesn't require any medication and doesn't cause problematic childhood behaviour, so there's really not much there to compare.

But I accept that my impression that there is a high incidence of autism and ADHD in Britain was mistaken, having looked up the statistics.

But that’s the point, that’s how homosexuality used to be treated, how it was viewed by society is very similar, an illness, to be medicated (look at the use of chemical castration) to be legislated against, seen as morally less than (I mean for millennia you were told you were going to hell) thank god society has moved on!

Let’s hope it does the same re ND. Too many people are being forced to live their lives as something they’re not in order to make others feel comfortable- read my previous post about how this makes a person feel. Educate yourself about what it feels like to have say ADHD, to feel judged for not complying with what appear to be impossible or utterly ridiculous and ill serving societal norms. It’s literal hell. Too many people are ready standing there with their pitchforks ready to push others deeper into the bowels of hell in order to keep the world pretty.

pinklama · 15/07/2023 08:18

Parenting and expectations from society, even as adults. i have a friend who lived in France and any noise at night time in an apartment block is not tolerated at all. Diet is better, more family orientated upbringing. Plus french kids go out to restaurants more often, it is a social skill they are taught from an early age.

I am going to say it but in this country expectations are much lower and nobody will take responsibility for bad behaviour, be it children, dogs, teenagers etc.

Getoutofherenow · 15/07/2023 08:18

Donotshushme · 15/07/2023 07:49

Why is the French way inherently better than the British way though? Children are children. Maybe it's because im Audhd and so are my children but i can't understand why forcing them to sit at a table listening to adults talking is an essential thing to do. It's trying to force ND people to act as if they're NT and reinforcing to your ND child that they have to mask and ignore their own needs so as to not bother other people with their disability. What's actually wrong with the British approach if the child needs something to assist them in sitting still and waiting for adults to finish?

It's like people don't have the imagination to understand that all children are different and that a child with ADHD who doesn't have any stimulation will find their own, which could be any number of "annoying" or "disruptive behaviours. So lots of people here would judge these children for a) using a tablet or colouring book and also b) being hyperactive.

My children do behave in public, by the way. But they definitely unmask when they get home.

We have a child with ADHD and his behaviour in restaurants was not a problem. Meal times were not designed to be torturous - we played games like 20 questions and I spy, traditional games like Whist, but also things like Exploding Kittens.
I had it in my head and fully agreed with dh that if they couldn't behave - we went home, it was clear to me that they were not enjoying being at the table, dh and I would not be enjoying trying to make them. Sometimes we did leave early - we knew they were tired, got the food boxed up and left. Sitting through dinner with your kids behaving badly is no fun, life's too short.

LaDamaDeElche · 15/07/2023 08:19

I can't speak for French children, only English and Spanish, as those are the countries I've lived in and taught in. In Spain, Italy, France etc, the big difference is that life is centred around family time. There as much compartmentalising adult time, child time and family time, like in the U.K. Kids stay up later, go out with family and although adults do go out alone, more often than not the kids go out with them. Also, for many people, they live closer to their family and weekends are spent in a more simple way having a meal together in a restaurant or just spending time at home. There isn't the emphasis on kids doing so many activities to keep them occupied. In Spain certainly, expensive days out or child centred activities are usually replaced with walks together, trips to the beach, visiting grandparents etc. Of course they play football and do activities too, but not to the extent kids in the U.K. do.

The Spanish language and culture is much more direct, louder and less confined by social etiquette and politeness than U.K. culture, so it's accepted for kids to be loud, boisterous etc, in a way it wouldn't be in the U.K. Families mostly to go restaurants where kids can run around a outside, and they certainly don't sit like French children apparently do, not are they expected to.

The teachers in schools, certainly in the area of Spain I live in, have a very hard time as there is a lot of low level bad behaviour - talking when the teacher is talking, getting up in class, shouting out etc - this is very different from what I experienced in the U.K. as it was only a few children who did this, here it can be almost the whole class. The older teachers are often shouty, angry and stressed from years of it and the younger ones are completely overwhelmed.

I think English kids have been given a bit of a bad time on this thread, as I actually notice how polite they are when I visit the U.K. There's an expectation to say please and thank you and be generally well- behaved that there isn't in Spain. That's comparing apples with oranges though as the culture and expectations of how children should be are very different in both countries. Children have more freedom to be children in Spain, which may seem to a Brit as unruly behaviour, but it wouldn't be perceived in the same way here. I don't really think people should compare their children to children from other countries as we're all differently societally and culturally as adults, as are our children.

NotAllPets · 15/07/2023 08:19

TommyNever · 15/07/2023 08:03

Homosexuality is not a disability, doesn't require any medication and doesn't cause problematic childhood behaviour, so there's really not much there to compare.

But I accept that my impression that there is a high incidence of autism and ADHD in Britain was mistaken, having looked up the statistics.

The fact you are saying ND requires medication and causes ‘problematic child behaviour’ shows your ignorance. What a horrific view.

Donotshushme · 15/07/2023 08:19

WeeWillyWinkie9 · 15/07/2023 08:01

No in otherwords they don't just label all at first glance like we do. They explore that what is presented could be down to other things first and try that before slapping on a label from some wooly criteria that most kids meet! They just show that it isn't as widespread as we think and prove that we label those who don't need it because we don't look at trauma first or diet we just go straight for the jugular.

Do you actually know how difficult it is to get an adhd diagnosis?

Donotshushme · 15/07/2023 08:22

TommyNever · 15/07/2023 08:03

Homosexuality is not a disability, doesn't require any medication and doesn't cause problematic childhood behaviour, so there's really not much there to compare.

But I accept that my impression that there is a high incidence of autism and ADHD in Britain was mistaken, having looked up the statistics.

I really hope that you never experience someone being homophobic to you in the way you're being so disablist on this thread.

Rainallnight · 15/07/2023 08:26

LobsterCrab · 13/07/2023 19:55

There's a book about this! It's called French Children Don't Throw Food.

Was just about to say this!

We go on holiday a lot to France and French parents are really bloody strict and it’s all just a bit less child centred than we’ve become. Kids are more expected to fall into line with what the parents are doing rather than everything being planned around the kids.

And, I only discovered on MN, there are shocking levels of stigma towards kids with autism, so as a PP said, they’re probably not brought to restaurants.

YRGAM · 15/07/2023 08:26

The self hatred of middle class British people is unparalleled globally, it really is

Daffodilsandtuplips · 15/07/2023 08:28

I’ve seen this several times in France, kids eating and chatting but the main thing I notice is the adults interacting with the kids, they are including the kids into the conversation, laughing, helping them to cut food up etc.

Elly46 · 15/07/2023 08:29

I think your kids are behaving as expected for their age and considering you use no screens. They’re also on holiday and in a new environment My 5yo son is ND, will happily sit at a restaurant, maybe taking a movement break but we supplement the second half of the meal with my phone where he will watch YouTube quietly. A restaurant is one of the few ‘adult’ things we enjoy as a family. Everyone is different, keep doing what you’re doing your kids are young and don’t sound that bad.

OMG12 · 15/07/2023 08:29

NotAllPets · 15/07/2023 07:54

I 100% agree with you. The problem is, as this thread demonstrates, we’ve decided that the right way to be, to behave, what is ‘normal’ is a tiny section of society and everyone else has to fit in with this. Anyone outside of this is wrong and must be medicated to fit in. I do take medication, but I think it’s society that needs to change really rather than the people who fit perfectly into it. I’m so glad there is more awareness of things, I think we will discover even more as time goes on and realise that instead of saying people are weird and trying to change them we will change how we treat them. But there are still so many ignorant idiots out there, I don’t imagine it will be in my lifetime.

I really hope that people start seeing the benefits of ADHD and eventually we put more effort into learning how these traits can benefit society rather than finding ways to make people with these traits fit into society by masking, never realising their true potential. aDHD traits are probably more beneficial to humanity than not (not so good for capitalism). Evolution certainly doesn’t seem to have wiped it out. Thinking outside the box, which people with ADHD excel at, is necessary for society to progress. I’m a big advocate for pushing the positives of ADHD. Society needs to change to embrace ND.

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