What is going on with British kids?

[FrenchAreDoingSomethingRight]

On holiday in France. An upmarket holiday camp and we are the only British family here. It was recommended by a French friend and I didn't realise it only has French families on holiday

Dinner is set 3 course dinner. My kids are 5 and 3. My older boy has ADHD we think (referred by school), our younger one doesn't as far as we know. Both kids are trying their hardest at dinner. There is v loud music playing and the pool party bit is still open. They run off after every course for a dance. Older one tries to stand up sometimes. We have colouring in books etc. Really they're fine. At restaurants and pubs they are totally average in terms of being able to sit at the table. No screens.

Not a single French kid has done anything wrong. No screens or even colouring. They might not all be talking to their parents but every single one is sitting through the whole 90 min dinner and waiting to dance at the end. So patient.

Do no French kids have ADHD or ND? Or even just kid like and cheeky? I have always tried my best with dinner times but these kids aren't even considering running off.

What is going on???

Er, stress and pressure free is not how I would describe French education. Their school days are longer also though they have Wednesday afternoon off.

germany has short hours, and there's a lot of discussion about how it stops mothers from working full time.

They probably read about it on the Daily Mail of course, so it must be true!

People who seek out ADHD diagnoses and who are prepared to wait (you admit at least the wait is long) tend to seek out a diagnosis because they have symptoms which they have likely already associated with ADHD. It's a bit like going to the dentist with a toothache - funnily enough once they wait for an appointment getting a filling isn't that difficult either!

Some of the replies on here are way off about manners. British adults have far better mannars and social etiquette then French adults. The French are some of the rudest people I have ever met. Waiting for public transport they literally push you out the way to get on, they dont wait until you get off before boarding, they skip qs to get served first, they are rude to waiting staff, no eye contact or interaction or pleasantries with anyone in public. When out you rarely see them interacting with their dc. Their dc are well behaved but its very seen and not heard. Its not all the sunshine and engaging people believe. French dc often look quite miserable.

Its true that dc are not constantly pandered to and are expected to sit and entertain themselves and not interup. They are used to sitting at long meals that are not child focused. Boundaries and rules are enforced and consistent.
I do feel in the UK we have flipped too far into life revolving around dc and disruptive behavior is ignored and expected.
I believe there is truth in the 'village' too. Parents here would be fuming if you dared say a bad word to their dc where as its the norm in france and other countries.
We do have friends with dc similar ages and we all comfortably correct unwanted behavior and pull others dc up. No one cares and its welcomed. Dc know that if mum and dad dont see and correct someone will, an adult always has an eye on dc, so we have pretty good dc when out as a consequence.

Im French by the way. Living in the Uk at the moment. DH British. I wasnt scared of my mum growing up but I did have very clear expectations and would sit for hours doing nothing while my mum socialised. I remember plently of my childhood being spent sitting in resturants until late while adults chatted and had drinks. I didn't hate it, its just what everyone did, we would interact with the adults or other dc or simply day dream. I dont remember ever being bored. I wouldn't dare misbehave or interup an adult conversation or run around because if my mum didn't say something the couple on the next table or the waiting staff certainty would.

One of my dc is ND. Not all ND dc can sit and converse over long dinners and thats ok. Mine do because that is my norm.
French dc do have ND or disabilities its just not talked about as much.
I think id have found life quite hard had I chosen to raise dc there. I do however think UK parents are falling into a more indulgent and passive parenting style and boundaries are ever changing and confusing. Dc are the centre of everything and are almost encouraged to interup conversations and are looked on as adorable if they are 'cheeky' or having a cute charecter if they are running around annoying diners. Our tolerence for rude and disruptive dc is high. Its not an individual parents fault its a societal issue. I include myself in that.

That Panorama episode was about private clinics. Are you in the NHS?

Yes this exactly! I first became a parent in the 90s and back then there used to be a huge pressure to make your children ‘behave’ being a young mother the pressure felt even more. Was probably the most stressful aspect of parenting back then, along with judgement if your child had a dummy etc. 2nd time round in my 40s with little ones and is much nicer parenting in a slightly more child centric society

These are the ones who need help, these are the ones who post 🤷‍♀️

No need to duck. You have made a very valid point. I agree. My children are 12/10 and we’ve always expected them to sit at the table when out. When they were younger they would have books/colouring etc but don’t usually now- although one is a real book worm so will take any opportunity to get her book out.
I was surprised when I used to meet friends and they would let theirs run around the table in cafes etc. They were still young then, but I still wouldn’t have allowed that or taken them if they really couldn’t sit for a short time.
I was once having lunch in a cafe when they were around 3 and 4/5 and a lady came to me to say she thought it was lovely because they were sitting at the table and we were all talking together. I was surprised that this was unusual to her at the time.

We have never given screens at the table but so many children sit on screens at the table in cafes and restaurants now with no one interacting with them (won’t start on toddlers in prams or sitting in trolleys with tablets 😭) - it seems to have become very normal and not just with children who have real reason to struggle with sitting.

NotAllPets
So I have seen a child raped and struggling with that trauma - no support offered at all, in fact declined (because she might say too much) but then down the route of ADHD because the route of counselling would uncover the suspected ongoing abuse.

I've seen a child who eats just sugar, chocolate, sweets, cakes, biscuits etc then can't concentrate. He must be ADHD because he struggles to concentrate, absolutely nothing to do with his diet and not one change to see before if it is that, straight to diagnosis and crack on with the nutella butties and milkshakes for lunch.

I've seen a child who has witnessed DV and changed from a quiet kid to a kid who was upset often and was struggling. No support offered for his DV issue or support to help mum leave the abusive situation. Just diagnose the child.

I've seen a child grow up and be told they are worthless from a parent constantly. Parent plays hot and cold, uses love as a tool to punish. Child has no support but struggles and guess what....straight to diagnosis.

I've seen separated parents fighting and one parent calling the police on the other repeatedly causing the child to have to undergo repeated interviews by the police, child's behaviour changed after these events.....guess what happened next?

I have not seen EVER a child struggle and then parents, school, healthcare workers go through a list of ruling things out first. No trial of a change in diet, no support mentally, no increase in exercise, no establishing routines etc. Straight to diagnosis every single time.

You say this as if being 'quiet and unobtrusive' is a bad thing! Never mind children, we could do with more quiet and unobtrusive adults! It's no bad thing, in my opinion, to teach from a young age that as people of any age we should behave with consideration and avoid disturbing others.

NotAllPets
I work with the NHS and see how easy it is to get a diagnosis and when all other options are ignored first. Can you explain why we do not check other causes first in the UK?

It's surely about food culture too. British school dinners = shove the sub-par fodder into you in 15, then go and play. French school dinners = decent amount of time to have dignified, balanced meal. There is much more reverence around food and meal times in general, hence it being a high-priority lesson that's taught to French children from a very young age.

They used to be though and still are in many countries. Or more accurately they are brought up to be part of a family and wider society, not to be the focus.

But many parents feel forced to medicate their children because society cannot accept their child’s traits - don’t get me started on doctors pushing medication to dull the masses into a compliant workforce- soma (in its many forms) is here to stay unless we start rejecting it.

kids sitting bored out their minds for hours on end while some adult gushes over a “taste explosion” or other such bollocks is not something to actually aspire to is it? Unless you value a person solely on their ability to be uniform, to be a number. The day dreamers weaving their way through parallel universes, the dancing kids connecting their mind body and spirit without thought or care. The arguers the questioners, the ones that don’t mindlessly queue up passively awaiting their fate. We want explorers of human spirit. We want people who don’t accept the norms and values of an ever failing society. It’s a balance too many and society would collapse, too few and it stagnates. Nature has created ND for a purpose, to prevent inertia -nature has crafted these non- dinner table sitters for a purpose. Be thankful for the minority of kids saying I’m not sitting at the dinner table I’m off to explore the fucking world. Time the world got back to encouraging then rather than beating them unconscious and tying them up a dinner chair.

They have and expect higher standards.

France isn’t the only European country like this.

But why the reverence round meal times, food is literally fuel to stop you dying and enable you to perform activities, not some god. We don’t demand family trips to fill the car up with petrol, sitting there inhaling the fumes.

90 minutes to eat a meal - ridiculous, think of all the other things you could do in that time, refuel, Do a pit stop, move on. As long as the time is filled with quality activities who cares. Someone up thread said French school days ran 8-5/530 (no don’t to take account of the 4 course lunch on China plates) Home by 6, two hours homework, 90 min dinner to bed then off again. Where do other activities fit in? Total waste of time. Refuel and go.

But many parents feel forced to medicate their children because society cannot accept their child’s traits

I think this is really ignorant. I have been on medication for ADHD since I was at secondary school, it helps me immeasurably to cope with life and to be able to have something that resembles a regular life in which I can actually do stuff I enjoy. Its not just about society not accepting things, but if a child genuinely needs medication it can change their lives immeasurably for themselves.

I might get stung for saying this but alot of children with behavioural problems and labels that parents push for for financial gain seem to come from certain family types and households lacking love and strong parents , lazy parenting and not setting boundaries

I don't think we have a child problem in Britain I think it's a parenting problem and easier to label than address shitty parenting

I have not seen EVER a child struggle and then parents, school, healthcare workers go through a list of ruling things out first. No trial of a change in diet, no support mentally, no increase in exercise, no establishing routines etc. Straight to diagnosis every single time.

The diagnosis process we went through involved a referral from our doctor who went through the history with us, a physical test of activity levels to detect physical differences arising from a ND condition, a discussion with a psychiatrist who explored family history and background, height and weight measurements etc. On diagnosis we were signposted to charities, to support. Medication was the last thing offered. Do you actually work in this field?

The French, like most of Europe, don't tolerate poor behaviour. I've sat in restaurants all over Europe and observed Spanish, French, Portuguese, Dutch and German children sitting quietly and enjoying their food while engaged parents talk to them and encourage them. Bad behaviour isn't expected or tolerated. The parents model how to behave and the children follow.

I'd like to know whether there are any links to the kind of child-centred, liberal, anxious parenting we see here in the UK and the tidal wave of narcissism, anxiety and mental health disorders we're now seeing. Is the same thing happening in Germany or France or Portugal where expectations of children seem different and parental boundaries seem stronger?

Have you read the thread? 😖 so children with diagnoses come from households who don’t love them, are lazy and just want DLA? my eyes😭

I lived in Spain, you’re talking bollocks. Why do you think so many restaurants have play areas next to their outside seating? It’s so the kids can run riot whilst the parents eat and drink in peace. There are play areas everywhere for that reason.

And again with the attitude towards mental health issues.

See this is exactly the problem.

Food is not just fuel. It is nourishment, information and has the ability to turn on and off genes. It’s hugely important and this kind of thinking means that you see a protein bar and a meal of fish and veg as basically the same when they couldn’t be more different.

It's cultural a to sit down and eat together at the table in France. Ingrained form an early age. In the UK it seems that children are fed early in the evening and packed off to bed and parents eat later. I've lived in France for 22 years and find behaviour in public of some UK kids quite shocking when I visit, running around and shouting in the supermarket, for example. While the parents say nothing, Not that all French kids are perfect, far from it.

and yet, Norway and the Netherlands, two countries with some of the grimmest attitudes towards food I have ever seen, are regularly considered to be at the very top for children.

It’s been mentioned a few times that people seek diagnoses for financial gain and I’m confident those suggesting this have never been through the process of getting DLA for their child, it is gruelling and it is most definitely not just handed out diagnosis or not. The form is meticulous and everything must be backed up with word from a professional (in my experience).