What is going on with British kids?

[FrenchAreDoingSomethingRight]

On holiday in France. An upmarket holiday camp and we are the only British family here. It was recommended by a French friend and I didn't realise it only has French families on holiday

Dinner is set 3 course dinner. My kids are 5 and 3. My older boy has ADHD we think (referred by school), our younger one doesn't as far as we know. Both kids are trying their hardest at dinner. There is v loud music playing and the pool party bit is still open. They run off after every course for a dance. Older one tries to stand up sometimes. We have colouring in books etc. Really they're fine. At restaurants and pubs they are totally average in terms of being able to sit at the table. No screens.

Not a single French kid has done anything wrong. No screens or even colouring. They might not all be talking to their parents but every single one is sitting through the whole 90 min dinner and waiting to dance at the end. So patient.

Do no French kids have ADHD or ND? Or even just kid like and cheeky? I have always tried my best with dinner times but these kids aren't even considering running off.

What is going on???

This thread has also just reminded me about when my siblings and I were kids we had houses in France so went a lot. We were on a cycle ride one day and my sister (about 12) accidentally cycled into an outside restaurant area (didn’t hit anyone or anything just went into an empty chair/table) and a fully grown man got up from his table and punched her in the face then walked off. My dad and uncle didn’t see it happen as they were cycling at the front of the group.. they went looking to confront the man but couldn’t find him. It was broad daylight in a town square. It was awful.

Completely agree with some pp. Sometimes, when I’ve phoned home re poor behaviour in class, I’ve had parents tell me it’s the teacher to blame (one parent threatened to phone the police when a colleague phoned to say his daughter had been rude-exceptionally poorly behaved child) Having spent time with French/Spanish/British kids, there are huge cultural differences in terms of behaviour.

“Children are treated like adults in the making”

but they are not mini adults. They are children. Going through periods of development. Until particular ages, they do not (cannot) reason in particular ways. For example meta cognition, abstract emotions etc. As such, until certain pieces of the development puzzle are in place, they are simply incapable of intrinsic motivation to do certain things (like sit at a table for very long stretches acting like a mini adult). Yet they can be trained to do this. Adults often refer to this training as ‘boundaries’, ‘discipline’ etc. In reality it is training in order to facilitate adult life as much as possible. What is considered poor behaviour (eg temper tantrums) is perfectly typical behaviour and developmentally appropriate at certain ages. Training children out of this before they are ready is not a parenting style I would aspire to.

A lot of parents would say that their children cannot sit at the table. At lunchtime in school they do, they have no choice but to. If they wandered around it would be chaos! It’s all about expectation.

By the way, there’s a book called French Children Don’t Throw Food

…😂

Dont get yourself upset by comparing your kids to others OP, it’s not worth it. All kids are different, all down to their own personalities and punishment styles are different in other countries, so that may be a factor. Neither of my two at that age would have wanted to sit at the table inbetween courses if there was a dancing area either. My two are now 9 & 11 and will take a book to dinner and read, but would 100% rather a screen. They’re not the best behaved kids in the world but someone looking in might think I have two angelic children as they’re quietly reading at dinner when I’m actually fact DS can be a CF and DD is at that lovely pre-teen moody phase.

British parenting...too soft....boundaries all blurred....was out today locally with a friend in a cafe....very self entitled middle class mum and brats walked in...brats sat and banged on the windows....parent did nothing...we got up and told them to stop....even told cafe owner to throw them out.....got the glare of course...!!

this! The lack of napkin at school really drives me mad. Kids learn to clean their hands on clothes. This is a disgusting habit so hard to lose. My kids go to posh expensive restaurants and sometimes they still clean their hands on their nice clothes. blah!

I lived in Spain and children are actively encouraged to go play whilst parents sit and eat and drink.

Different cultures, different styles. But just because children are sitting for 90 minutes doesn’t make them ‘better children’ or British children ‘worse’, it just means they’re raised differently. Why must children sit up and shut up just because that’s what adults demand of them? Better to meet in the middle I’d say, bit of sitting, bit of dancing.

We have too great an expectation of children.

I was a beautifully behaved non British child. I knew I'd get hit (with spoon or belt) if I wasn't tgough. When I see kids sitting quietly, not interacting with adults and not seeming to be chatting with other kids I do have pause.

Where are you? We are looking for places to go late in the season

I’m married to a French man. And I’ve read that book.

it totally glosses over the dark side odd French parenting.

it’s really is parenting by control and fear.

completely standard and expected there to physically punish your children. Also to yell and scream at them in anger.

we travel to France a lot and I’m frequently appalled by the parenting I see from the French.

skiing this year the first day of ski school a dad was yelling and dragging about by the arm his five year old daughter who was crying an panicking.

i didn’t see the start but it looked like she was nervous and upset to start class. But rather than give her the cuddle and reassurance she needed he was terrorising her.

i seriously considered intervening.

and yes, massive social pressure and judgement. So families with kids that can’t live up to that don’t go to restaurants etc.

the French are a very angry nation - see their recent riots and always very violent protests even over boring stuff like pensions. But if you’ve been brought up in anger you’ll be an angry adult.

DH left straight after university and would never live there again.

It’s brilliant and overall makes family life much easier.

You mean they meet with YOUR expectations and it makes YOUR life much easier. Kids aren’t adults in the making, they're not mini adults, they’re kids. Totally different.

I CBA reading the whole thread and It’s probably been mentioned but you want want to look into how the French treat disabled or ND children, and why you don’t tend to see them in public. I’d rather not love in a country like that thank you.

I agree, my children were the same. Having said that my grandchildren were also perfectly well behaved eating out from a very young age and they weren't little goody goodies either but saved that for home.

Well clearly that's bollocks also. I'm an only and I would have hated to be getting attention and being in the limelight. Surely it all comes down to the personality of the child? However, I grew up in a time when children didn't rule the world!

I do agree that onlies tend to be better at interacting with adults. I used to go out all the time with my parents socialising, and was always the youngest person there by several years (and I managed to sit through all this quietly without having to be entertained), but people talked to me and I was allowed to have opinions.

Well exactly @5foot5 different experiences. Just experiences. Not presented as scientific fact. Which was my point.

@Threenow that was exactly my point I was trying to say that a limited personal experience of about 5 kids is not a scientific theory. Clearly I didn’t make that point very well 😬

The books recommended above are v interesting have read them both. I have 2 NT DDs and don't aspire to French child-rearing attitudes/behaviours much. Our DDs when 3-4 had screens if we went out, now we have conversations and no more than 90 minutes at a table and they do great. We do also have very firm boundaries and expectations of their behaviour when out and about.

Don't worry about it though OP. The UK is inherently soft on child rearing, in ways I find quite mortifying to watch. But your DCs sound happy and content. They're on holiday in another country so you will notice a cultural/behavioural difference.

French kids are controlled to within an inch of their lives. French teenagers are generally feral.

They all rebel eventually

I say that as a person living in jersey and seeing a lot of the French and having been to France on many occasions!

I personally think it's a bit much to expect children to sit still for a long, 3 course meal without any form of entertainment. My children manage with colouring and games, and without screens, but not with conversation alone. And of course they need to stretch their legs between courses.

I think French parents have high standards. And perhaps healthier lifestyles, no snacks, varied and interesting diets etc. so the kids probably spend longer eating and enjoying the food.

My husband and I were on holiday in Malta a few years ago (pre-covid), and there was an organised holiday for french teenagers, so there were no parents just youth leader type supervisors. The behaviour was appalling - pushing in front of people in the all inclusive dinner lines and lifts, running around the halls of the hotel at night, swearing etc (I work with children so have a high level of “noise” tolerance for children having fun but others were complaining about the screaming and shouting) - I would definitely prefer my teenager, who knows better, to be polite and not push past people into lifts. At least younger children are still learning how to interact in the wider world.

Yes, when I was at primary school back in the dark ages (1970s) we always sat at tables to eat with knife, fork and spoon and white china crockery emblazoned with the blue Norfolk county council logo. We said grace (“For what we are about to receive, may the Lord make us truly thankful”) before the food was served. The main course was served by a top junior (year six), with the vegetables and gravy served by two year fives. The year six child would serve the pudding and one of the year five children would serve the custard or other accompaniment. There was no choice. We drank water, which we poured from big jugs into proper glasses. There would always be a member of staff at the table, who would encourage us to try a little bit of everything. Finally, you were not allowed to leave the table until everyone had finished.
Omg, I had forgotten all about that pre-lunch prayer until I read this! Same, almost exactly, except Yorkshire in the early 80's.
I grew up in a large family, tea was at the table every night, cooked from scratch, and often lasted over an hour. We had to ask to get down- "Please may I leave the table" and I brought my kids up the same way.
Daily experience of eating properly and it being expected that it's what you do, becomes easy, from really young.

I live in Spain. Spanish kids are so well behaved it was su g a shock when I started teaching the too as honestly the behaviour is impeccable.

I think it might be because they are close families and they are all parenting together

Yup this