What is going on with British kids?

[FrenchAreDoingSomethingRight]

On holiday in France. An upmarket holiday camp and we are the only British family here. It was recommended by a French friend and I didn't realise it only has French families on holiday

Dinner is set 3 course dinner. My kids are 5 and 3. My older boy has ADHD we think (referred by school), our younger one doesn't as far as we know. Both kids are trying their hardest at dinner. There is v loud music playing and the pool party bit is still open. They run off after every course for a dance. Older one tries to stand up sometimes. We have colouring in books etc. Really they're fine. At restaurants and pubs they are totally average in terms of being able to sit at the table. No screens.

Not a single French kid has done anything wrong. No screens or even colouring. They might not all be talking to their parents but every single one is sitting through the whole 90 min dinner and waiting to dance at the end. So patient.

Do no French kids have ADHD or ND? Or even just kid like and cheeky? I have always tried my best with dinner times but these kids aren't even considering running off.

What is going on???

I agree, it’s not better parenting but most of the posts on here are equating it to better parenting, eg setting boundaries, etc, fine if you want to prioritise a 2hour sit down meal over sports activities etc. not my cup of tea. I’d rather my kid was moving than scoffing but hey! We prob eat a home cooked meal in say 20 min as a family. We do lots of activities/homework etc. we prioritise that over sitting on your backside got extended periods. Like you say priorities.

The French riots, as with most civil unrest, usually has little to do with a cause once it’s sparked and is usually just a cover for lawlessness, looting etc.

I feel like railing against 'the youth of today!'is just a British past time really. We've been doing it for hundreds of years.r

In reality, there are plenty of shitty adults about, so I don't think the 'gentle parenting' trend of the last 10-15 years really has much impact. More that bad people are generally bad parents and bring up badly behaved children. Most young people I meet are pleasant and polite.

And if you can't dance at a pool party between courses on holiday when you're 5, then when can you? As long as no one is being inconvenienced or disturbed then who cares? I hope they had a lovely time.

Oh youth have always been more ‘badly behaved’ than adults but I don’t believe teenage boys beat their mums up as regularly as they seem to now. Their behaviour goes beyond a few cans in the park, or smoking on their lunch break, it’s very dark and violent. Teachers who have been in their career for 30+ years generally confirm this.

I don't know, I think a lot of stuff happened between closed doors in families in the past that we are just more aware of now. Violence against women has traditionally been more acceptable in a domestic setting, so I would imagine people just didn't speak about it.

French society can be very buttoned down and conformist. The schools are soulless, the parties are rubbish, humour in everyday life and work is so much less than the UK, and oh my god the sexism..

There’s lots they do better of course - and overall I think their slightly more formal parenting is no bad thing, but dancing between courses sounds totally fine to me - so in this case I think 1-0 to the Brits.

I’d say 95% of children walk or cycle to our secondary school, most people live v close to secondary schools. In rural areas there’s often buses, sometimes parents have to drive. That’s pretty consistent with people I know across the UK.

Primary can be different eg with parents dropping kids off on way to work etc
and the kids being less independent.

I’m a little unclear about timings though, say the child finishes school at 5:30, home by 6. 2 hours home work you say then say 1.5 hours at the dinner table. That would take them to 9:30. Back in school for 8 so up at say 6;30. Most 11 year old need say 9 hours sleep. So it doesn’t sound like they get any alone time, time to pursue hobbies etc. they’re probably not getting sufficient sleep.

We also have 3 hour exams (A levels) on leaving school.

Really intelligent answer….. Kids behaving must of course mean they never have fun.

I think meals are so important for us French as we see them as a social time, even if close family only.
Screens are never allowed at the table and this would be considered quite rude (video with sound on is never even considered an option).
We take books though when the meal will be very long, even for young DC, no toys that would make noise or mess).
And no leaving the table until everybody is finished - exception for children sometimes when in someone’s house but they will ask to be excused, not just leave the table.

what kind of party do you go to? 😂

What happens when you tell your kids they can't leave the table to dance every 15 minutes during dinner?

I think getting up and down like that is going to encourage their restlessness and hyperactivity, a bit like how kids are often tired but quite hyper after lunch break at school.

You know what surprises me in the UK? Children are not given napkins when eating at school! At least not in the 3 schools (state/private) my DC attended.

This to me is the perfect example: children should be treated at mealtime like you would treat an adult. Give them a napkin, stop having ‘kids food’ options but have half portions of adult food, and expect them to behave properly.

We get 1.5 hours at lunchtime and of course that time isn't all spent eating. Most of us work so there just isn't time. The actual eating part of the informal family evening meal probably takes less than an hour. The several hours long lunch is a once a week (or less) thing with grandparents, and it's when there's a lot of chatting because you haven't seen people for a while. Children usually go and play after a while and maybe come back for pudding if there is any.

Though British now, both my DH and I grew up in continental Europe. I can certainly spot the differences in the parenting style of British vs French.
While teaching good dinner manners is commendable, the attitudes to people with special needs in France are decades behind the UK.

We visited Paris recently with my two sons, one is in his early 20s and severely autisic. He had so many dirty looks thrown at him, whenever he was stimming, or humming. I cannot say nobody ever stares here, but if they see you looking at them, people would often smile awkwardly and turn away. Not in Paris.

We were sitting at Petit Palais courtyard cafe, in the very corner, DS was very excited and waving his arms and humming, in a good mood, happy with his soft drink and cake, not bothering anyone. God, the looks he got, as if they were personally offended by his presence.
There were several instances, when I was just shocked by the nasty attitude. Very unpleasant. I also didn't see anyone with special needs around, as if they are staying hidden. It might not be true, of course, but that was my impression.

Yes, when I was at primary school back in the dark ages (1970s) we always sat at tables to eat with knife, fork and spoon and white china crockery emblazoned with the blue Norfolk county council logo. We said grace (“For what we are about to receive, may the Lord make us truly thankful”) before the food was served. The main course was served by a top junior (year six), with the vegetables and gravy served by two year fives. The year six child would serve the pudding and one of the year five children would serve the custard or other accompaniment. There was no choice. We drank water, which we poured from big jugs into proper glasses. There would always be a member of staff at the table, who would encourage us to try a little bit of everything. Finally, you were not allowed to leave the table until everyone had finished. This meant that many of us evolved into adults who would eat most things that were put in front of us, we learned eating etiquette (the staff members ensured this), and we were treated in an age-appropriate adult way.

Family meals and good manners are started at a very young age - Both inside and outside the house - plus mealtimes in France are always thought of as very important and yes sometimes quite long - but a time to sit together and appreciate good food - many European countries follow this pattern

@Violinist64 Michaela school does this and they've been told they're evil for it.

This is how I see it too. I wouldn’t want my kids to disturb anyone, but I also wouldn’t necessarily want them to just sit there like perfect little adults.
As for the art of conversation - we talk to our kids a lot, and I also like it when they join us when we have friends over for dinner for example.
I wouldn’t expect them to sit with us all the time though and I also enjoy talking to friends without kids being constantly present. I don’t think they need to be included in every conversation.

I think a lot of British mothers try to excuse bad manners or behaviour and try looking for a diagnosis as an excuse. I get that SOME kids have ADHD but I do think a lot of it is children having no routines, eat crap and parents wonder why they are always running up the walls, no discipline. I worked in hospitality for many years and have witnessed children running riot while parents sit oblivious to how disruptive and dangerous it can be. I’m 31 and it perplexes me how many children are neuro divergent now compared to even 10 years ago.

I hope they ignore the backlash and continue doing it. It works.

Both my parents always say that the behaviour of children in restaurants and cafes is very different today to the way it was 40-50 years ago when my siblings and I were kids, so I do think it's more likely to be a parenting/cultural thing than anything else and that parents have different standards in the UK today than they do in France, or in the UK in the 60s and 70s.

Maybe it is true that people are more confident about taking neurodiverse kids out to eat in the UK than they are in France (or were in the UK in the 1960s and 70s) - I'm sure that could certainly be a factor. But I don't think that entirely explains it, because I've often eaten out and seen almost every single child in the place getting up, wandering around, messing about, making a fuss or whatever, and I think it's statistically unlikely that they're all neurodiverse. And also, not all neurodiverse kids are the same anyway, so even if they were, they wouldn't necessarily all find it hard to sit still.

I must admit I also wonder how “I don’t tolerate poor behavior” (which includes leaving the dinner table early) and “I never shout” works.
So the kids always just listen? And what happens if they don’t?
Regarding French children I’ve read and also heard from French friends that spanking isn’t uncommon, not a route I would choose.

My children are British and are well behaved.

Many parents don't teach manners and respect, so their children are badly behaved.

Far too many parents let their children wander round cafes/pubs/restaurants assuming other people/families are delighted to have their drinks/meals interrupted by their precious ones. They are allowed to squabble, stand on seats or sing their favourite tunes out loud.

Recently I was in a cafe with a friend, trendy one with long tables, two women dumped their four children on our table and they went to sit elsewhere. Hang on we said we will move and you can sit with your children. The two of them had faces like thunder.

Do you "tolerate" for your kids to jump out of an open window? Do you "tolerate" for your kids to run across a busy road? Do you "tolerate" for your kids to hunt for medication an d try to poison themselves?

Of course you don't.
There's a lot of things you don't "tolerate". You parent. When you care about something, you make it work. You manage to say "no" when you are protecting your children, it's not hard.

I also don't understand all this stuff about how French kids at nursery have to sit down for their meals and stuff. Doesn't that happen at every nursery here too? DD1's nursery has a routine where they have different kids every day helping serve meals and set the table, kids are expected to wash their hands and then sit and wait for their main meal, then dessert, then all get down from the table together and help clear up. I don't think that's unusual when it comes to nurseries, so I'm a bit confused as to how France is somehow innovative in that they have kids sitting down together to eat a meal with a knife and fork.