What is going on with British kids?

[FrenchAreDoingSomethingRight]

On holiday in France. An upmarket holiday camp and we are the only British family here. It was recommended by a French friend and I didn't realise it only has French families on holiday

Dinner is set 3 course dinner. My kids are 5 and 3. My older boy has ADHD we think (referred by school), our younger one doesn't as far as we know. Both kids are trying their hardest at dinner. There is v loud music playing and the pool party bit is still open. They run off after every course for a dance. Older one tries to stand up sometimes. We have colouring in books etc. Really they're fine. At restaurants and pubs they are totally average in terms of being able to sit at the table. No screens.

Not a single French kid has done anything wrong. No screens or even colouring. They might not all be talking to their parents but every single one is sitting through the whole 90 min dinner and waiting to dance at the end. So patient.

Do no French kids have ADHD or ND? Or even just kid like and cheeky? I have always tried my best with dinner times but these kids aren't even considering running off.

What is going on???

Did you understand what I wrote?

Yes and?

I have one of those fizzing with energy the whole time. He can still sit for an hour and a half for a meal. Cos he's been taught to from a very early age and its normal to sit down to eat and talk with family / friends. Without a screen.

This is totally not the norm in the UK.

Research from 2021 shows that only 28% of families sit down together for an evening meal in the UK. There's been a significant decline in families eating together over the last twenty years.

One of the reasons is 'time' and the other is 'fussy eaters'. Both parents working will definitely be a factor in this, but the ease and common nature of having ready meals will be another. In the past it simply wouldn't have been possible to give the kids something different to eat because they don't like X.

What's different with France is much more of an importance put on eating together, eating later in the evening (so easier to eat together), less reliance on ready meals with kids still expected to eat the same as adults and snacking / eating on the go frowned on (so food on demand isn't the thing, you have to be patient and wait for the main event).

If it is normal for you to sit down to dinner together from infancy, you will learn to do it no matter how much energy / neurodiversity you have. If its a rarity then you will have kids that play up, cos they don't know how to do it.

This isn't rocket science.

Yes and you’re a bit patronising and rude on top of what you wrote.

Well you clearly didn’t. I said special needs are used as a straw man, not that people with special needs are making it up

Here too. Plus the dancing thing on holiday

So what?

Such a lazy excuse.. parents "cannot largely ignore their children", it takes work. It must be extremely rare to find one child born with good manners, who needs no supervision and no guidance.

The children who don't cause any problem are the ones with adults who parent.

It's the children with parents who just ignore them, or play the "kids will be kids", smile and don't move a finger when they cause problems, or drop and run, who are a nightmare.

Not as often or to the level we see in France. But the whole premise of this thread is about how much better behaviour is in France and how well kids are brought up over there due to superior parenting- this is obviously not the case. In fact statistics indicate that British parenting generally raises better adjusted adults in respect to behaviour and mental health and a society that is more inclusive of ND people. French society is largely about show. This is the point of parenting.

I don't think they are no. I think parents are absolutely exhausted and there's no support for them. Widening the net for diagnosis has been criticised by many professionals, esp if it's done so instead of supporting parents more and extending the services people can access. There are more and more little children with no regard to boundaries or respect. I think it is actually really rude and I sensitive to immediately jump to the conclusion that it's SN. It's frankly dehumanising to kids with SN. They're not all naughty nor do they all lack boundaries.
I am simply saying that as a nation, we've underfunded public services so much, that we are now getting to the stage where instead of actually supporting parents and kids, we are giving them a stamp and more and more often, using it as a reason behind all behaviour, a lot of which are perfectly normal. It is diabolical and I don't care if calling it out means I get called ableist or whatever other word people on here want to use. I know I'm not. I do a lot of advocating for these kids irl and I won't stop saying this.

It's the teachers you have to feel sorry for. Having to teach something that some children have never encountered in their life, sit still for 5 minutes, listen to other people and don't disrupt the rest of the class.

What a waste of time for another thing the children should have learned at home.

I look at if from another angle. The French approach doesn’t make me think they are dealing with SN better, or even well.

Too much stigma. I feel sorry for ND dc in France, it’s sad if it’s harshly dealt with.

This may have been said already but French school dinners were fairly formal affairs, with everyone sat down with proper cutlery, as it was at my school.Now U.K. schools either have plastic airline trays and folding benches or at secondary food is served in boxes and pupils roam around the outside space using a plastic fork if you’re lucky. Doesn’t exactly model good table manners.

Even if you have a kid with special needs, if you make it a routine to sit down together and eat / regularly do this not just in your own home but in other places from an early age, they will learn the routine.

Its routine as much as discipline thats at play here. ADHD is NOT a get out of jail free card here.

DS has been referred - can still manage to sit and eat at the table. We have friends with a child with autism and really bad ADHD (needs significant meds) - he can still manage to sit in a restuarant, have a meal and not need a screen.

Its about attention, interaction, engagment and the kids knowing what is expected and it being enforced with consistency.

There is a certain amount of 'this is a special occasion, all rules no longer apply' that kicks in for a lot of families too I think.

Dc can be very different. That won’t necessarily work with all dc with SN

A child with ASD may simply be unable to deal with the noise and environment

Oh I feel very very sorry for the French kids and parents. I said that earlier. Their approach is abhorrent.

Its not 'better' parenting.

Its a higher value placed on a certain type of behaviour in a certain situation because of a cultural difference in how we socialise and eat.

Brits don't blink at a ready meal in front of the tv being a regular thing. Or eating something as they walk down the street.

This is completely different to France.

These different values, lead to different priorities. Children (and adults) will behave differently as a result.

This also includes the willingness to riot as it goes as our value system places higher importance on the concept of 'not rocking the boat' and knowing your place whereas the France belief system puts higher importance on the idea that it is ok to challenge authority if not listened to by other means.

Is this for real?

Are people really arguing that we shouldn't teach kids table manners so it doesn't single out ND kids?

Where are you seeing that?

Not all dc can just learn it, that’s what I was responding to. Not sure which you are referring to

All true!!!!
Almost everyone is home for dinner and it’s expected. No one would eat a meal deal in france unless you happened to be on the motorway services.

there is no link between french ‘anti-social’ behaviour and kids meal times! Two very different elements of the french culture and aren’t related. They would argue that their tendency to strike is actually a positive thing for their society because it is nearly always rooted in a collective resistance to change, which is seen as progressive attempts to diminish peoples’ rights and quality of life.

the take home key point on the actual topic of the thread is that in France, meal times and eating are very very important!! It’s not about discipline it’s just that eating (good) food is high on everyone’s priorities.

Ive lived in france for circa 15 years and have never ever seen ‘a bar of chocolate in a baguette’ 😂 they do like hot chocolate though in the mornings for kids. Makes sense to have sugar at the start of the day and the chocolate powder for kids breakfast is also often fortified with vitamins and minerals; they consider some sugar at breakfast a healthy start to the day and in my experience eat much less sugar at lunch & dinner than in typical British diet.

I don't think that's what people mean, no. I do think there are lots of DC who's SN are such that they wouldn't sit through a 3hr meal, and plenty of NT kids who wouldn't either if this wasn't the norm for them.
Saying that, the general attitude towards expectations for SN kids is very low and getting lower. We are failing them. I am not just blaming parents. As I said upthread, there is no post diagnosis support for the most part, and no training for parents on how to parent a child with ND. A lot of the support parents will get online and frustratingly by the time they managed to get to the top of a NHS list and get a diagnosis, their child is so far into destructive behaviours, no advice from online blogs will help. NHS won't offer any in person support either.
So I can really understand why parents get defensive when I say things like diagnosis is used as an excuse. I acknowledge the complex situation parents are dealing with, but I do think we just don't have the support networks parents are desperate for and we also fail in early interventions. Massively.

So what is the relevance of ND kids? Yes they may find it more difficult (I ate mostly with hands and food could not touch other food on my plate until I was about ten) but some can and will, learn.

Seems a bit ableist to me.

What does?

Saying that not all SN Dc can learn to cope with what they find to be a stressful environment?

There’s nothing wrong with that view, it’s true

SN isn’t just one thing, one reaction

I'm confused. What is your point?

@Foxesandsquirrels

What is the relevance of ND kids here?

Read the Op, and the thread.

Yes, some ND can't.

Some can.

The blanket assumption that none can, is bollox.

The French are more likely to sit at a table every night.

We're more likely to eat in front of tele.

It's that simple.