What is going on with British kids?

[FrenchAreDoingSomethingRight]

On holiday in France. An upmarket holiday camp and we are the only British family here. It was recommended by a French friend and I didn't realise it only has French families on holiday

Dinner is set 3 course dinner. My kids are 5 and 3. My older boy has ADHD we think (referred by school), our younger one doesn't as far as we know. Both kids are trying their hardest at dinner. There is v loud music playing and the pool party bit is still open. They run off after every course for a dance. Older one tries to stand up sometimes. We have colouring in books etc. Really they're fine. At restaurants and pubs they are totally average in terms of being able to sit at the table. No screens.

Not a single French kid has done anything wrong. No screens or even colouring. They might not all be talking to their parents but every single one is sitting through the whole 90 min dinner and waiting to dance at the end. So patient.

Do no French kids have ADHD or ND? Or even just kid like and cheeky? I have always tried my best with dinner times but these kids aren't even considering running off.

What is going on???

Still, you are saying most English families do then? Just asking.

Wow.
My kids have always sat nicely at the table.
No entertainment ever supplied.
They engage in conversation and will sit and chat well passed finishing the meal.
It is just their normal and was ours as children too.

No need to bully, hit or abuse them if they have always grown up with this.

Like the French.

@FKATondelayo although they may be third generation, french born etc. they don't feel accepted as French. The UK gets a lot wrong, but the acceptance of cultural difference is (I think) working better in the UK.

That is bollocks in my case.

DH is ASD, his sister is ASD, his sons are ASD, and nephews are ASD. Our Dd is ASD. My Ds is not ASD and neither am l.

So l wonder what happened there then?

There are so many of these threads and they’re always filled with utter bollocks about what French people are like and what a French upbringing is like.

Also full of posters desperate to tell us their dc behave beautifully at other times.

Stereotype of the French as fond of a riot is not racially specific. I'm referring to a 300 year history of protest - not just this year's.

This is true. The poster is correct who mentioned the tables and chair thing. 90s kid here... and me and my brother always ate at the kitchen table for all our meals to be fair on my mother... that's how it was back then it was the norm back then. Today I would say its not as common, teens in bedrooms like passing ships living in the same household. It is an unfair comparison because times have changed and its not for the better. My DC has an Ipad and he watches YouTube but it is what it is in this generation. These things weren't even an option back then so it's not as clear cut that as Brits as shit parents today. Manners however today do need to be taught no excuse for that when out dining out in public.

My children are at Uni age, they would have easily sat through a 90 minute meal, possibly if they got agitated I’d give them a colouring book, till food arrived.
once staying at a hotel when they were 3 and 5 the dining room was full of a coach party from America all of a certain age, at the end of the meal 2 ladies came and complimented my husband and I on our well behaved children.
it’s not hard but lots of parents indulge their children to the point they can’t see that they are annoying other people.

As PPs have mentioned French Children Don't Throw Food is excellent at setting out why.

Basically. Expectations and role modelling since they were tiny. The importance that the French give to good food and understanding it, even in nursery schools, sitting down at a table together and talking. Less snacking. No tolerance for poor table behaviour etc etc.

I don't have kids but it's an excellent and insightful read. Bought it after similar observations when in France. Small children sitting through 3 courses chatting happily to parents. No screens or screeching. Choosing their own food and discussing choices with Waiters. Seeing a 3 year old plough through a plate of unshelled crevettes and a pot of moule with gusto!

Another difference is the society is more family based & everyone is involved eg hands on gps. And whilst there are boundaries dc are included in lots of things. We don't seem to like or value dc that much anymore.

For all those saying about engaging in conversation..we do talk to our kids but also they're v young so we aren't going to chatting for hours.

The French families round me aren't all talking to their kids. They're talking to the other adults and the kids are staring at the sky or possibly each other. The kids aren't all loving a wonderful family dinner. They just know not to get up until it's over.

Its my pet peeve people talking about expectations without explaining what that actually means. Or saying we just told our kids to behave. What do you think the rest of us are doing?

What happened there is that @bellac11 talked utter shite. ND children are often (arguably always) traumatised by trying to exist as ND in a NT world. The failure of the NT world to accommodate us causes the trauma. The trauma does not cause the ND. There wouldn't be babies and toddlers diagnosed as autistic if trauma cause ND.

Agree that children with disabilities are more hidden.

I used to work in France in healthcare with people with disabilities. I wasn't a parent at the time but I was intensely uncomfortable with the way my adult sibling with Downs Syndrome was treated when he visited. He was the only identifiable person with an LD I saw out and about the whole time. Children with neurodiversity are not tolerated and are often sent away from their families, as are children with disabilities. People openly point, stare and mock. This was in the 2010s.
I expect that parents of children who couldn't cope with the rigid cultural expectations simply don't take them out.

My own children are in my view well behaved. We don't need screens. They can sit through a meal in a normal restaurant. But they chat away to us and they look at books / small toys in a quiet non disruptive way. I think that's fine, and it's the way I behaved in restaurants in the 90s as a child. However this behaviour would not be ok in France. Frankly I quite like talking to my kids at dinner rather than expecting silent tolerance of adult conversation....

I don't think its about strictness exactly, but about parent-centred parenting instead of child-centred parenting. I do think parenting could be more parent centred here sometimes. Happy parents = happy kids.

I was a young lone mum studying and working I did this out of necessity, ignorance and lack of other mum friends - taking DS to work, to dinner, to friend's houses etc. He has his issues of course, but knew his way around sushi age 5 and is great with adult company. I also feel intensely guilty that I wasn't more mumsy though. I think there is a balance to be had.

The kids aren't all loving a wonderful family dinner.

This. The kids are coerced into submitting to the adults. This superficial "good behaviour" isn't the same as a healthy family dynamic at all.

Exactly- maybe it’s actually under diagnosed in France to the detriment of children (look at their poor mental health record).

Some children (obviously including some British children) are naturally compliant. Naturally compliant, docile children or those who aren't particularly high-energy often don't have an issue sitting still for long periods. Their parents don't have to do much to enforce this.

Often their parents compliment themselves that it is the result of their superior parenting when really it's just luck.

You're unlikely to find someone with neurodiversity in a restaurant and sat around a table. Those environments are very distressing and overwhelming for them. The sound of clinking plates/eating/talking etc.

Do you know any adults who have difficult sitting down through a meal? No, me neither.

Why expend effort getting your children's behaviour to conform to a norm when they are clearly not ready. You are trying their best, you are encouraging to do the right behaviour and they are really not harming or disturbing anyone. They'll sit through a meal when they are ready.

If it's any consolation I remember my 3 year old dancing on his chair at a very formal family meal (mortifying). 10 years later he'll happily come for a long meal without a phone. Especially if the food is good.

I have 3 children. DC1 is 6, she’s a ‘good girl’ by nature and quite mature, she likes order and quiet that’s just who she is. I wouldn’t worry for one second about taking her for a meal. She’d sit for hours, talking with adults.

DC2 is 4, she is much more spirited, energetic and easily bored. I think she is quite capable of sitting through a meal, but she would probably need some form of entertainment, colouring, games etc.

DC3 is 2. She would last 5 minutes in a high chair, even if we interacted the entire time. She’d want to be walking round the restaurant, touching things, exploring her surroundings.

If I insisted she stay in the high chair, she’d just scream/cry, which no doubt people would take offence to. So I have a few options, take her out and walk around until the food comes (frowned upon) or give her a device (frowned upon.) How do you win? 😂

Do French 2 year olds just sit patiently? If they do surely that’s conditioning? Forcing? I cant imagine how I’d achieve it with my youngest without literally killing her spirit!

Plenty of adults don’t particularly enjoy sitting through a long 3 course meal.

Shhhh - don’t disrupt the “France is Utopia” Mumsnet narrative.

I think going out for dinner and family meal times are just not prioritised in this country. I’ve just come back from Spain and was shocked at the amount of British children on devices at the table, including older ones. I saw one toddler strapped in her buggy facing the wall watching something on her parent’s phone while her parents and siblings sat at the table. Even babies should be at the table with you watching you eat and being part of the family once they can sit.

My friend always comments on how well behaved my children are when we go out for dinner. She has given up taking her children out for meals now. I think her problem is that she works long hours so the baby is put in front of the tele with a ready meal, the older 2 have their pizzas or instant noodles next and then finally she will sit down with her husband later for their dinner. So many people just don’t have time, or are not making it a priority to sit down as a family and interact with one another and to teach their children what is polite at the dinner table.

To be fair even the adults in my husband’s family are not the best at meal times. They rush their food and leave the table before everyone has finished. It’s not enjoyable for them. Growing up for me going out for meals was a real treat and we always had big family meals so it’s really important to me.

I have heard negative things about Spanish children though so it would appear their parenting is much more relaxed than the French. Children are allowed to run round and be loud, even till late in restaurants in Spain. I remember going on holiday to Spain in the 90s and all the French friends my Dad made had all come on holiday without their children. I wonder if they’re not as central in French families?

And especially not in France, where highly-impaired ND people are likely to be institutionalised and never seen in public.