Boris Johnson has "forgotten his old phone code" so can't supply the messages

[cakeorwine]

Boris Johnson ‘has forgotten’ passcode for phone wanted by Covid inquiry | Covid inquiry | The Guardian

It's like getting blood out of a stone.
First he was late to supply the messages.
Then he forgets his passcode.

I am sure there are ways to get in to it.

Most of us manage to keep our work WhatsApps and our Private ones separately.

If Government discussions were held by WhatsApp they are disclosable.

And while I'm not about to defend Boris Johnson, I accept that difficult decisions had to be made whilst the science was emerging. And I would like to see the context for those decisions.

My DM died during the first week of lockdown. I believe the policy of moving elderly people around hospital wards made it almost inevitable that she would contract the virus. I want to know why the fuck good infection control practice was ignored right at the start of a pandemic. And I want to know what advice the politicians were getting. Because my sense is that the big boys got excited at the thought of building nightingale hospitals and doing things at scale, and ignored what we have known since Florence Nightingale pointed it out to the Eton twits of her day.

But you're all missing the forest for the trees.

What outcome do you want from this

A) Boris Johnson and co get a red mark in their Permanent Record for saying mean things about people

B) We get an improved pandemic preparedness policy, including recommendations both on the effectiveness of different public health measures, and on formal procedural points such as "in future, xyz type of restriction should require the explicit consent of Parliament"

Why is ALL the reporting on this focused on A. I don't give a shit about Boris Johnson and he's no longer even an MP. I do care a lot about B. That is the substantive part of the inquiry, or should be.

Not missing anything.

The method of communication/discussion is irrelevant.

The messages form part of development of policy and that is property of the Crown.

The Inquiry only interested in how the Government formulated policy.

We won't see anything not relevant to the above.

Because to get to B we need to understand what decisions were taken on the basis of what information and why.

And if those discussions were held via WhatsApp the enquiry need to see the chats.

It isn't about beating Boris up - I genuinely want to understand the context.

Why are we having an inquiry into how the decisions were made

And not an inquiry into whether those decisions were the right ones - i.e. whether we should make similar decisions in future

I don't worry about AI or nuclear war anywhere near as much as I worry about future pandemics. We are getting caught up in stupid Westminster gossip and shitfights instead of considering the real issues.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-57085964

So we can look at the next time?
Decision making, how they were made, what decisions were made.

Those things are important

The Government set the terms and structure.

covid19.public-inquiry.uk/structure-of-the-inquiry/

I’m sure the Police can get into it. If this was Joe or Josephine public they soon would do.

I don’t think he’s bothered about having said mean things about people, doubt he’d give much of a shit about people’s feelings.

I reckon there’s evidence of corruption / further lawbreaking that he doesn’t want to come to light.

Got to be pretty bad to be worth all this embarrassment.

Because the evidence was emerging. The country had planned (arguable - but hey) for a flu pandemic and had to deal with Coronavirus.

Scientists were arguing for and against lockdown. The politicians for all their many faults were in the eye of the storm with conflicting information. How they made decisions matters. Who influenced them matters. What risks they considered is relevant.

I think Boris is a lying scum bag, but as it happens, his reluctance to lockdown the country, was objectively a reasonable position. How he was persuaded otherwise matters.

We are getting caught up in stupid Westminster gossip and shitfights instead of considering the real issues.

And who's fault is that?

If Johnson and the Cabinet Office had just handed the bloody phone over, complete with password, instead of creating this huge, prolonged drama of legal fights to hide it, ridiculous statements that it would be insecure to turn it on, ridiculous claims that they didn't have the password, then we would all have moved on to the next phase - and this would be a good thing.

Instead Johnson and the current government are playing a stupid game of One More Day where every time they manage to stave off consequences another 24 hours they considered it a win. Then the next day they have to do the same again.

Johnson has lived that way all his life. Now we as a country have a government doing it.

@Middlelanehogger Of course we need to learn the lessons for next time but we also need to know whether the decisions made were made with best intentions at heart and in good faith or whether this was just a jolly japes piss up for those concerned.
e.g Hancock had an affair, anyone who has fallen in love & especially in an affair knows your mind is simply not on your job of employment, its on having sex plus keeping it secret, its a heady combination... it also appears that drink played a large part in decision making.

The basics of preparing for a flu pandemic are similar to any other viral infection, PPE, staff, beds, infection control... Blair built up very good stocks of PPE and funded healthcare, austerity undid pretty much all gains made under Labour.

Bojo locked down because pretty much every country in western europe had done so, it was totally the correct decision but made 2 or 3 weeks too late, hence the UK having a very long LD, even if it wasn't as strict as some countries.... the real questions revolve around the 2nd and 3rd ones and Sunaks ridiculous eat out policy.

The inquiry seeing these messages and all other communications made at the time will ensure transparency & accountability, Bojo not being an MP now is neither here nor there, IF he screwed up, he is accountable for that.

You could n't make it up could you?
How absolutely pathetic.
It's going to be the cat ate it next.

Lockdown was absolutely the wrong decision. We are living with the consequences. Look at every single inflation thread on mumsnet. Printing money to make the population stay at home without working for a year drove that heavily.

I want Mr Johnson to be accountable for in all but name killing 20,000 people. In a court of law.

The only reason I do not want him to hang is my lifelong opposition to the death penalty.

How convenient.

Covid restrictions could have achieved the same impact of reducing the spread before the vaccination was available in about half the length of time, if the government had acted promptly in March and September 2020. Children would have been back at least part time in school in three months not six.

I certainly don't want the outcome of this inquiry to be "the minute we hear of a new potential virus we should immediately lock down as hard as possible".

Why are we not having THAT DEBATE. I care even less about Matt Hancock's love life than I do about Boris Johnson's phone.

Come on, this is important.

Even if you disagree and think we should have locked down harder, faster, whatever - at least that's a substantive conversation about our approach to the next pandemic. Not this useless handwriting about text messages.

People keep saying we'd have had a shorter lockdown in 2020 if we'd gone earlier. What's the basis for that? The rates were low by June. Is there something I'm missing?

Also agree with PPs that it's utterly vital we consider how decisions were made as well as whether they were correct. We aren't actually in a position to fully answer the latter at this point anyway, but we should certainly be scrutinising the processes. That matters a lot.

It isn't "useless hand wringing about text messages".

The Covid Inquiry is investigating all aspects of the UKs response to covid. That includes looking at how the Government was advised & how they responded.

As the Government chose to use WA to communicate between Minister and Advisers that will be included in their review where it relates to the Inquiry.

It won't be reviewing Minister's love lives and the suggestion that they will is ridiculous.

I don't see how you can make this argument from a lockdown sceptical perspective without acknowledging how we got into lockdown. We had existing pandemic planning that didn't include it, and the reason it happened is because it was politically impossible not to when nearly all the rest of Europe had (note, this is not the same as arguing that it was the wrong decision, and just because we had pandemic planning doesn't mean it was correct). We know Johnson would've preferred not to.

With that in mind, scrutiny of the process is surely more important, not less? Because we can come up with whatever recommendations we want for the next pandemic, but who's to say they won't simply be ignored like they were in March 2020?

How many people stayed at home without working for a year? Can you link to a reputable source confirming that? I was furloughed for a few weeks from late spring and then got back to work. Yes, it was remote working, but I was working the same hours as I was before lockdown. I don't think I was unusual in that respect at all. And that's before we allow for the millions and millions of people who carried on going into work because remote working was not possible and they were doing essential frontline work.

I want the Tories to be held accountable for basically forgetting that pandemic planning was essential and needed to be kept up to date. If we'd had decent track and trace systems in place from early in 2020, and if stocks of protective clothing etc for HCPs had been adequate, it would have made all the difference.

Yes, fair points and I agree we should scrutinise the process.

But two points:

1. we have enough information already to judge the process - strictly speaking the relevant parts of the process relate to what decisions the "Government" can unilaterally take, and what decisions require consent from "Parliament" via processes recorded in Hansard etc. As far as I'm concerned the government can deliberate however it likes (on WhatsApp, flipping coins, random number generator, asking the nearest 3yo child). My personal issue is that I think some of their decisions infringed on civil liberties without appropriate oversight and discussion in formal channels and I think should have been challenged.

I don't need to see any WhatsApp messages to know this. I just need to look at policy announcements against the Hansard record

2. the media coverage (and Mumsnet discussion) of this inquiry is focused on the Westminster gossip angle about "sleazy Boris Johnson", which I find ridiculous compared to actually engaging with the substance

Even if you disagree and think we should have locked down harder, faster, whatever - at least that's a substantive conversation about our approach to the next pandemic. Not this useless handwriting about text messages.

You what? Governments should be accountable. That's it.

If the phone is wanted - hand over the phone.

That joker thinks he's above any ordinary rules or requests.

Handwringing my arse.