To hate how mums always have to sacrifice their career...

[rumun88]

I have 2 kids .. one 18 month old and a 6 year old. I work in a cafe for an estate, one week day and one weekend day and there's no flexibility in that I have to do a weekend day.

I've been offered a job as a GP receptionist and I would love to take it. But it's only £10.42 an hour and with it being weekdays we would need to pay childcare. Basically with the summer hols coming up, childcare for both kids would cost more than my wage. DH will cover it, but part of me is thinking what's the point when it means I'm not bringing any money to the pot technically. I'd also have to have both kids in different childcare settings which are opposite side of town by 7.30am. In my current job he works from home the 1 week day and is home the weekend day so no childcare.

So I have the choice, take the new job and get my weekends back but don't exactly earn, keep my current job and work every single weekend.. or be a SAHM.

Please help. I could cry! I was a dental nurse before kids and again childcare was an issue. We have no family support.

What would you do?

Wtf? Not in my partnership. Speak for yourself!

And nobody makes choices in a vacuum no, but society is ever-evolving and the norms that are internalised now, are not the same norms as 20, 50, 100 years ago. Maybe some women on here have internalised that they need to be at work to be properly valued? Or they've internalised that anything traditionally female is 'lesser' and any difference to men is 'inequality.' Those women did not make choices 'in a vacuum' any more than a SAHM did. In fact, being a SAHM is probably 'going against the grain' of societal expectations nowadays. Still, doesn't mean it's a bad thing.

I've never said that being a SAHM is a bad thing.

There will be individual women who have internalised ideas about work and being valued and undoubtedly these ideas will be a product of their experiences and upbringing.
However, women as a class are still socialised into caring roles. That's not really up for debate as the evidence is overwhelming.

The most recent example of this is during the pandemic. It was women that took on the vast majority of childcare, homeschooling and caring for the elderly and vulnerable. There is no evidence that this was due to biology. It was due to societal expectations and structures.

I deliver a lecture every year which looks at women and work. Not only is the evidence there to support what I'm saying but the experience of the people I teach does too.

A perfect example of this is something I experience regularly. I travel for work regularly and I guarantee that on every trip someone asks whose babysitting my child. When my husband travels not one person asks him this question.

I suppose in Ukraine they should have evacuated all the men and kept all the women over 18 to fight the Russians.
Didn’t this thread start out with OP fancying a job that didn’t use up her weekend? Am I high?

A perfect example of this is something I experience regularly. I travel for work regularly and I guarantee that on every trip someone asks whose babysitting my child. When my husband travels not one person asks him this question.

I have a similar example. I don't travel for work regularly but occasionally an opportunity comes up, I was surprised a few months ago when I didn't even seem to be considered like usual and when I asked about what I could do to improve etc I was told that I wasn't asked just because he didn't think I'd want to leave my baby.

He had no concerns about any of the men leaving their young children.

I am wondering the same thing.

'I will get around to it'. Wonder how the husband feels about that. Maybe it's what works for them, though.

I would never put myself in this precarious situation that's for sure.

Maybe some women on here have internalised that they need to be at work to be properly valued? Or they've internalised that anything traditionally female is 'lesser' and any difference to men is 'inequality.' Those women did not make choices 'in a vacuum' any more than a SAHM did. In fact, being a SAHM is probably 'going against the grain' of societal expectations nowadays. Still, doesn't mean it's a bad thing.

Firstly I think you're vastly overstating the degree of progress that's occurred in society over the past 50 years if you think the majority of women feel they need to work to be "properly valued". Some of the comments on this thread demonstrate how far we are from this: there are still people who are actively hostile to the idea of women using childcare and someone on this thread actually said that men are "biologically career driven", which is one of the most frighteningly ignorant things I've read on here in a long time. If society now buys into inequality a lot of people clearly didn't get that memo

Secondly most of us don't work in order to "feel valued". We work primarily to support ourselves and to a lesser extent because we enjoy it. I'm not in the habit of making major choices in my life to "feel valued". I do them because I want to do them and because they benefit my family.

When they split up? 🤣 Who is to say they will split up?

"Am I high?"

No, bussteward. Just on AIBU.

Oh god, this is like a systematic sexism bingo thread now. Male protector, women biologically programmed for care roles, 🙄

No wonder we are so far from equality when even women are perpetuating this crap.

"I do them because I want to do them and because they benefit my family."

That's great @Thepeopleversuswork. So do I.

I agree women are still routinely questioned about childcare more than men. However, most women do work these days (even if it's part-time). I wouid say this cultural expectation on women is just as strong. Also, too many women seem to have internalised that they can expect nothing from men. They are delighted if he loads the washing machine regularly or something.

@norestguests I don't disagree at all that many women don't demand enough from men.

I'm not sure that demanding they be supported and looked after is the solution, though.

I'd much rather be in charge of my own financial destiny and have a partner who is also in charge of his and have a team approach to domestic and child-related tasks.

Division of labour along "you do this, I do that" lines may superficially be seductive but it is only ever going to lead to one person holding all the financial cards in the relationship, which I think is a very slippery slope.

Also, too many women seem to have internalised that they can expect nothing from men. They are delighted if he loads the washing machine regularly or something.

The vast majority of women I see doing this are SAHMs or women working part time who are treated like domestic servants. Because their men - like you andn @Lambiriyani - think that man's role is to be out protected and providing and women are biologically meant to stay withn 10 ft of their kids. More women are working, yes, but it's primarily women who are SAHPs and it's primarily women who are part time. There has been no big shift... which is a shame.

I don't internalise pressure to work because I am a woman. I expect to work becuase I am an adult and expect to pay my own way regardless of my genetalia. Just as I expect DH to parent his kids irrespective of his.

It's annoying but fundamentally true - and if you think about it, it makes perfect evolutionary sense, both from a biological and sociological pov. Doesn't mean that women have to remain second class citizens forever but its not a coincidence that that's what we've fundamentally been in cultures world wide for time immemorial.

It's all about genes getting themselves into the next generation at the end of the day. Like it or not.

I wouldn't expect my husband to do something which I'm not prepared to do myself. Working is one of those things.

However, most women do work these days (even if it's part-time).

Exactly.
72% of women work but 45% work part time ( compared to 13% of men).
If a woman is 'economically inactive' (not my terminology) then it's generally due to caring responsibilities whereas for men it's generally due to ill health.

As ever, the devil is in the detail. Women are not participating in the labour market in the same way as men.... not even close.

It isn't fundamentally true at all.

So are you saying that biology is responsible for sexism? There was me thinking it was the patriarchy!

Regardless, luckily for us, we aren't "just" animals anymore, we are a bit more advnace and we know that women can do things just as well as men.

OP has 1 child at soon and before you know it the other one will be going too. OP is trying to find a little something for herself... some of us go to work for the rest and to break the week up.

Can you apply as a Clinical support worker and do nights in a hospital or twilight shifts with agency OP?

Maybe some women on here have internalised that they need to be at work to be properly valued?

my husband values me because of our shared goals and achievements. My children value me for being there for them when they need me and being a stable role model. My boss values me because I’m bloody good at my job and said himself recently that if I handed my notice in they’d be up shit creek.

I like working, both dh and I come from broken homes. I lived alone from being 17 until I met him at 24, there is no way on this earth I’d allow myself to be wholly and completely reliant on him even now after 12 years together and happily married - I still always have that thought of what would I do if I was left alone.

Which mother gets to stay at home and be provided for when the parenting couple are lesbians?

@QforCucumber beautifully put. There's too many women that are willing to be ignorant that just because you are married you could well end up the shit creek.

@DisquietintheRanks

It's annoying but fundamentally true - and if you think about it, it makes perfect evolutionary sense, both from a biological and sociological pov

It really isn’t true and there is no credible scientific evidence whatsoever for this.

Maybe some women on here have internalised that they need to be at work to be properly valued?

So is that what your husband thinks? Or do all these overdramatic things like ‘living to work’ or having no value outside of paid work only apply to women and somehow men are exempt?
Funny that.

This debate is as old as the hills, or at least the twenty odd years I've been on Mumsnet. I wish we could harness all the energy into campaigning for top quality, affordable childcare available to every family so that women have a genuine choice.

As a pp said childcare varies hugely in quality and at the moment the sector is a bomb waiting to explode. The profit driven business model is unsustainable and the 'free hours' expansion will break a lot of providers. Like teachers and nurses EYPs are overworked, underpaid and quitting in droves. I have had to leave the job I love and am good at because I don't earn enough to live on. I will be moving somewhere much cheaper so I can go back to it but many are leaving permanently and I can't blame them. Nurseries are losing their best practitioners and relying on apprentices and unqualified staff, spreading out the few L3s they have left. Children are getting poorer provision.

I want to see high quality care and education provided by educated, motivated people made available to all families. The most disadvantaged,who would benefit most, are not the children in nurseries. In my area few access the 15 hours funding for two year olds because childcare businesses put obstacles in the way as these children are a loss maker. In deprived areas nurseries with a lot of funded two year olds are going bust. How does this support women back into work or education?

Please could we put the power of Mumsnet behind this, rather than judging each other.

I know I'm on my soapbox but, much like Noble giraffe on the education threads, I don't know what else to do to wake people up to the crisis in early years.
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@KateF

Please could we put the power of Mumsnet behind this, rather than judging each other.

Agreed.